Conlang Random Thread

[Man in Space]

TL;DR is I got distracted by the real world, so I’ve done some further work but not much, not enough to post anyway. But in brief:

There is stuff going on with ligatures and how these letters work together; the idea is that the vowel (and, where salient, phonation) appears over the fully ligatured syllable to show what consonants directly precede and follow it—say the consonants are ’-w-n-t, there are several valid syllables that unpointed look identical: ’awnt, ’want, this is actually a bad example because the w vocalizes, but just the pointing tells you where to syllabify in many cases. I have not quite yet figured out how to handle the ’w- in the writing. It is a stupidly frequent occurrence because the idea was that Kgáweq’ lacked bilabial consonants (sort of like as Mohawk does), so when faced with the prospect of borrowing a word with *p *b, they improvised.

Way back in my halcyon days, Campbell’s Historical Linguistics was a required text in my Intro to Historical class in college, and there was a language family (it was Mesoamerican but without the text at hand I cannot recall which specifically) for which several constituent languages’ reflexes were given to compare. The parent language had borrowed a word that, in Spanish, had had initial b-; all languages in the family, which lacked any /b/, reflected this as p-…except one. One stood alone with an amusingly anomalous, but still actually logical, exception: /?w/. I remember thinking something along the lines of “Dude, this still satisfies +stop, +labial, and +vc, that’s awesome”. Anyway, that has become an internal meme, and it applies to Kgáweq’ historical linguistics.

I’m surprised Kg is even remotely as recognizable as it is, given the amount of sonority hierarchy shuffling going on. I started retroactively trying to merge Täptäg into this language family because I thought it was a good idea at the time. I am attempting to figure out how to explain it and Täptäg being a genetic clade…it may or may not be plausible just on its own due to natural diffusion…Hmm…

You know, that gives me an idea.

Anyway. Kg and Tä are both descended of a language that had sesquisyllabic roots. The three reduced vowels (the yers) in the preönset were characteristically fully vocalized in Kg, whereas Tä characteristically deleted them. Their retention is why Kg develops its stress system: if the initial isn’t stressed, it is due to reflecting a yer.

Anyway. A quirk about the pointing. Kg also, somewhat notoriously, features vowel harmony, in which a word can either be in the u-state or the o-state. This means that only one set of vowels is possible for a given written word (even their compounds generally adhere to harmony rules for the overall surface form). Great! Except no. Because which vowel triggers the harmony is determined differently between the two primary lects. West Kg uses the stressed vowel of the root as the determinant (which determines the yer), it’s the final vowel of the root in East Kg. Even less helpful is that there’s a correspondence with one vowel in the o-state having two possible correspondents in the u-state, for which you can blame history being picky about vowels with centering diphthongs and my own caprice because I didn’t want to change that feature of Kg overall.

Upshot is, there are four or five distinct vowels possible in each state, as based upon height. So Kg only marks those distinct ones, so the reader may supply their own dialectal preference for the o-state or the u-state.

The stress marker gets pointed if it’s there instead of the consonant.

[bradrn]

There is stuff going on with ligatures and how these letters work together; the idea is that the vowel (and, where salient, phonation) appears over the fully ligatured syllable to show what consonants directly precede and follow it—say the consonants are ’-w-n-t, there are several valid syllables that unpointed look identical: ’awnt, ’want, this is actually a bad example because the w vocalizes, but just the pointing tells you where to syllabify in many cases. I have not quite yet figured out how to handle the ’w- in the writing. It is a stupidly frequent occurrence because the idea was that Kgáweq’ lacked bilabial consonants (sort of like as Mohawk does), so when faced with the prospect of borrowing a word with *p *b, they improvised.

All very interesting. I’d like to see some examples of what this looks like in practice!

[naz]

o

[Man in Space]

Gotta a new script for Amal...

https://i.imgur.com/DZMmDi6.png (I'll just leave the link cuz the image is biiiig.

Ishmayel ta Ugun nakabeshum ye tanusha mara halin gelabu yibitak gala. Abhum man émwa kudu nagra bihalin ketedra yibitwa lai abya taninel bakra muqinsha. Ishmayel atanámak wádeshu ila halin yibit lai tinedeshu ibyámak bitaberu, ta kabak, Ishmayel uhulwa meneshu. Ugun webeshu agalha ta biyara halin yibit lai ketedeshu. Bo Ishmayel wibbeshu dishek Ugun nisha atanámwa ilha.


The North Wind and the Sun were disputing, which was the stronger, when a traveler came along wrapped in a warm cloak. They agreed that the one who first succeeded in making the traveler take his cloak off should be considered stronger than the other. Then the North Wind blew as hard as he could, but the more he blew the more closely did the traveler fold his cloak around him; and at last, the North Wind gave up the attempt. Then the Sun shined out warmly, and immediately the traveler took off his cloak. And so, the North Wind was obliged to confess that the Sun was the stronger of the two.

It looks very nice. Has some notes of naskhi mashed up with Mongolian.

[Travis B.]

Gotta a new script for Amal...

https://i.imgur.com/DZMmDi6.png (I'll just leave the link cuz the image is biiiig.

Ishmayel ta Ugun nakabeshum ye tanusha mara halin gelabu yibitak gala. Abhum man émwa kudu nagra bihalin ketedra yibitwa lai abya taninel bakra muqinsha. Ishmayel atanámak wádeshu ila halin yibit lai tinedeshu ibyámak bitaberu, ta kabak, Ishmayel uhulwa meneshu. Ugun webeshu agalha ta biyara halin yibit lai ketedeshu. Bo Ishmayel wibbeshu dishek Ugun nisha atanámwa ilha.


The North Wind and the Sun were disputing, which was the stronger, when a traveler came along wrapped in a warm cloak. They agreed that the one who first succeeded in making the traveler take his cloak off should be considered stronger than the other. Then the North Wind blew as hard as he could, but the more he blew the more closely did the traveler fold his cloak around him; and at last, the North Wind gave up the attempt. Then the Sun shined out warmly, and immediately the traveler took off his cloak. And so, the North Wind was obliged to confess that the Sun was the stronger of the two.

It looks very nice. Has some notes of naskhi mashed up with Mongolian.

Seconded.

[bradrn]

Gotta a new script for Amal...

https://i.imgur.com/DZMmDi6.png (I'll just leave the link cuz the image is biiiig.

Very nice!

Out of curiosity, what software did you use to make that? (It doesn’t look hand-written to me — I’ll be very impressed if it is…)

[Travis B.]

And on that note....

[ˈkʼɑrːotset̪ wɐˈʎiwːɐ ˈʃæːçtse qʼɔːl ˈχɑrtsɐskʼɐ ˈkʼɑmɐ lɑj ˈmiɲːɐt̪ɐn ˈd̪utːsɐtse ræˈmɛːjt̪ çi wɐˈɸɑːrt̪ mæd̪ ˈqɑlːt̪ɐ ˈʃeɣɐ]
/kʼɑrrutit wɑliwwæ sæːhti qʼɑwl χɑrtæskʼɑ kʼɑmɑ lɑj minnætɑn duttæti ræːmæːjt hi wɑfɑːrt mæd qɑlltɑ siʁæ/
K'arrutit Waliwwe Seehti Q'awl xartesk'a k'ama lay minnetan dutteti reemeeyt hi wafaart med qallta sige.
k'arr-u=tit Wa-liww-e Seeht-i Q'awl xart-es=k'a k'ama lay minneta-n dutte=ti ree-meeyt hi wa-faart med qallta sige
dispute.IPFV-PST=SUBJ.3.D.M.ANIM NMLZ-wind.IPFV-CONST north-GEN sun strong-CMP=SUBJ.REL.3.S.M.ANIM REL.3.S.M.ANIM ELATIVE 3.D.M.ANIM-ACC come.PFV=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM AGT-go.IPFV ESSIVE NMLZ-wrap.IPFV INST coat warm
The North Wind and the Sun were disputing, which was the stronger, when a traveler came along wrapped in a warm cloak.

[ˈzɑlːtset̪ ˈmiɲːɐt̪ɐ ˈɲisɐwɐ ɲeˈmæːɾɐtse ˈmiɲːɐ ˈʃiɲːekʼɑ ˈkʼɑmɐ ɲet̪ɑʁɑʃtˈdzitsekɐ ræˈmɛːjt̪ t̪oˈqɑlːt̪ɐ çi ˈqɔːχɐrtsɐs mɑj ˈciɲʒeʁɐn]
/zɑlltit minnætɑ nisɑwɑ nimæːrɑti minnæ sinnikʼɑ kʼɑmɑ nitɑʁɑːstditikɑ ræːmæːjt tuqɑlltɑ hi qɑwχɑrtæs mɑj kinziʁɑn/
Zalltit minneta nisawa nimeerati minne sinnik'a k'ama nitagaastditika reemeeyt tuqallta hi qawxartes may kinzigan.
zall=tit minneta ni=sawa ni=meera=ti minne sinni=k'a k'ama ni=ta-gaast-d-i=ti=ka ree-meeyt tu=qallta hi qaw-xart-es may kin-ziga-n
agree.PFV=SUBJ.3.D.M.ANIM 3.D.M.ANIM COMP=SHOULD COMP=believe=SUB.3.S.M.ANIM 3.S.M.ANIM succeed.PFV=SUBJ.REL.3.S.M.ANIM REL.3.S.M.ANIM COMP=PRES-remove.PFV-CAUS-PASS=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM=3.S.F.INAN AGT-go.IPFV POSS.3.S.M.ANIM=coat ESSIVE NMLZ-strong-CMP EXESSIVE PERSON-other-ACC
They agreed that the one who first succeeded in making the traveler take his cloak off should be considered stronger than the other.

[ˈjukːɐtse wɐˈʎiwːɐ ˈʃæːçtse çi χɑrt̪ çi ɲeˈɣæh ˈjukːɐtse χuːr qʼurː ˈmiɲːɐ ˈæɲtsɐ ɲeˈnudːtsekɐ ræˈmɛːjt̪ t̪oˈqɑlːt̪ɐ æɲtsɐ ˈfɔːɾɐ ˈmiɲːe deˈkʼɑtsekɐ wɐˈʎiwːɐ ˈʃæːçtse fɐˈmɑːqɐ çi tʼɑzd̪]
/jukkɑti wɑliwwæ sæːhti hi χɑrt hi niʁæh jukkɑti χuːr qʼurr minnæ æntæ ninuddtikɑ ræːmæːjt tuqɑlltɑ æntæ fɑwræ minni dikʼɑtikɑ wɑliwwæ sæːhti fɑmɑːqɑ hi tʼɑzd/
Yukkati Waliwwe Seehti hi xart hi nigeh yukkati xuur q'urr minne ente ninuddtika reemeeyt tuqallta ente fawre minni dik'atika Waliwwe Seehti famaaqa hi t'azd.
yukka=ti Wa-liww-e Seeht-i hi xart hi ni=geh yukka=ti xuur q'urr minne ente ni=nudd=ti=ka ree-meeyt tu=qallta ente fawr-e minn-i dik'a=ti=ka Wa-liww-e Seeht-i fa-maaqa hi t'azd
blow.PFV=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM NMLZ-wind.IPFV-CONST north-GEN ESSIVE strong ESSIVE COMP=ABILITY blow.PFV=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM however also 3.S.M.ANIM TRANSLATIVE COMP=fold.PFV=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM=3.S.F.INAN AGT-go.IPFV POSS.3.S.M.ANIM=coat TRANSLATIVE around-CONST 3.S.M.ANIM-GEN give_up.PFV=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM=3.S.F.INAN NMLZ-wind.IPFV-CONST north-GEN NMLZ-try.PFV ESS end
Then the North Wind blew as hard as he could, but the more he blew the more closely did the traveler fold his cloak around him; and at last, the North Wind gave up the attempt.

[ˈnuħːɐtse qʼɔːl çi ˈqɔːʃeɣɐ ˈʁɑːʃtːsekɐ ˈbikːo ræˈmɛːjt̪ t̪oˈqɑlːt̪ɐ]
/nuhhɑti qʼɑwl hi qɑwsiʁæ ʁɑːsttikɑ bikku ræːmæːjt tuqɑlltɑ/
Nuhhati Q'awl hi qawsige gaasttika bikku reemeeyt tuqallta.
nuhha=ti Q'awl hi qaw-sige gaast=ti=ka bikku ree-meeyt tu=qallta
shine.PFV=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM sun ESSIVE NMLZ-warm remove.PFV=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM=3.S.F.INAN immediately AGT-go.IPFV POSS.3.S.M.ANIM=coat
Then the Sun shined out warmly, and immediately the traveler took off his cloak.

[wiːt̪ ˈʃæçe ɲeˈhɑzɐtse wɐˈʎiwːɐ ˈʃæːçtse ɲeˈχɑrtsɐʃtse qʼɔːl lɑj ˈt̪ɑːwon]
/wiːt sæhi nihɑzɑti wɑliwwæ sæːhti niχɑrtæsti qʼɑwl lɑj tɑːwun/
Wiit sehi nihazati Waliwwe Seehti nixartesti Q'awl lay taawun.
wiit sehi ni=haza=ti Wa-liww-e Seeht-i ni=xart-es=ti Q'awl lay taa=wu-n
OBLIGATION therefore COMP=admit.PFV NMLZ-wind.IPFV-CONST north-GEN COMP=strong-CMP=SUBJ.3.S.M.ANIM sun ELATIVE two=N-ACC
And so, the North Wind was obliged to confess that the Sun was the stronger of the two.

[quinterbeck]

There is stuff going on with ligatures and how these letters work together; the idea is that the vowel (and, where salient, phonation) appears over the fully ligatured syllable to show what consonants directly precede and follow it—say the consonants are ’-w-n-t, there are several valid syllables that unpointed look identical: ’awnt, ’want, this is actually a bad example because the w vocalizes, but just the pointing tells you where to syllabify in many cases. I have not quite yet figured out how to handle the ’w- in the writing. It is a stupidly frequent occurrence because the idea was that Kgáweq’ lacked bilabial consonants (sort of like as Mohawk does), so when faced with the prospect of borrowing a word with *p *b, they improvised.

Sounds great! Looking forward to see how it plays out visually when you have the time to share

[naz]

o

[Richard W]

Then again, plenty of ancient Near Eastern cultures used a similarly messy sexagesimal system for thousands of years and we still have traces of it today in our timekeeping.

It was the computers that used the sexagesimal system. Ordinary people tended to use the decimal system.

[malloc]

It was the computers that used the sexagesimal system. Ordinary people tended to use the decimal system.

What the aitch-ee-double-hockey-sticks are you talking about? Perhaps you are thinking of hexadecimal, popular among software engineers as a more compact representation of binary. There were no computers in Babylon, according to mainstream archaeology at least.

[keenir]

It was the computers that used the sexagesimal system. Ordinary people tended to use the decimal system.

What the hell are you talking about? Perhaps you are thinking of hexadecimal, popular among software engineers as a more compact representation of binary. There were no computers in Babylon regardless of what the History Channel claims with its "Ancient Aliens" nonsense.

"Computer" was originally the name, job title, and occupation of people who did the harder forms of math...in the 19th and early 20th century, they were usually women.

[bradrn]

It was the computers that used the sexagesimal system. Ordinary people tended to use the decimal system.

What the hell are you talking about? Perhaps you are thinking of hexadecimal, popular among software engineers as a more compact representation of binary. There were no computers in Babylon regardless of what the History Channel claims with its "Ancient Aliens" nonsense.

[EDITED OUT]

This is really unnecessarily harsh.

[keenir]

What the hell are you talking about? Perhaps you are thinking of hexadecimal, popular among software engineers as a more compact representation of binary. There were no computers in Babylon regardless of what the History Channel claims with its "Ancient Aliens" nonsense.

"Computer" was originally the name, job title, and occupation of people who did the harder forms of math...in the 19th and early 20th century, they were usually women.

This is really unnecessarily harsh.

I agree, and I realize i should not have said it that way; I think I got frustrated from how, when we tell Malloc something, it seems to be water off a duck's back most days. still, that is no excuse.

I apologize, Malloc; I went too far.

*edits earlier post*

[bradrn]

*edits earlier post*

OK, thank you. I’ve edited it out of my post too.

(I still think it’s a bit harsh, but better than it was.)

[keenir]

*edits earlier post*

OK, thank you. I’ve edited it out of my post too.

(I still think it’s a bit harsh, but better than it was.)

I'm just hoping Malloc removes the "ancient aliens" accusation & the curseword.

[bradrn]

*edits earlier post*

OK, thank you. I’ve edited it out of my post too.

(I still think it’s a bit harsh, but better than it was.)

i'm guessing its the "now that you know...retract that" line?

Yes.

[keenir]

thank you for helping me with this.

[bradrn]

i'm guessing its the "now that you know...retract that" line?

Yes.

removed; thank you for helping me with this.

You’re welcome!

[malloc]

I'm just hoping Malloc removes the "ancient aliens" accusation & the curseword.

As you wish.