bradrn’s scratchpad

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bradrn
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Lērisama wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 6:37 am
bradrn wrote: Tue Jun 17, 2025 12:18 am Note that there is no single ‘thematic vowel’, like there is in IE.
I agree that vowel/consonant-final is better; calling it thematic was just some combination of a bad attempt at humour and what happens at 11pm when you have just been reading about IE verbs.
Oh, I know; just thought I’d clarify in case.
EDIT: whoops, I misread the question! It’s because the plural suffixes are vowel-final and hence always take the ‘athematic’ suffixes.
Oh, that was my misreading, I had nol-a as vowel final and žan as consonant final because I forgot about the nasal grade¹
Yeah, it’s a bit weird to think about. If it wasn’t that I liked the look of my old language so much, I would have found a saner way to write it. (Probably using ⟨Vi⟩ for the palatals and ⟨Vɴ⟩ consistently for the nasals… or something like that.)
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
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bradrn
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

EDIT: whoops, pressed ‘Submit’ instead of ‘Preview’! Hopefully this post will be done soon…
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

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bradrn
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Generic verbs, part 3: new Eŋes verbs

Since I redid all the verbs in the protolanguage, my Eŋes dictionary has gotten badly out of sync with the verbal lexicon. So I took the opportunity of overhauling the entire verb system. Here’s a big table of all the verbs so far, along the lines of those in the verb stems post:

Code: Select all

|   | Iterative |            | Atelic   |          | Stative   |             | Intensive |         | Punctual   |             | NEG     |
|---+-----------+------------+----------+----------+-----------+-------------+-----------+---------+------------+-------------+---------|
| i |           |            |          |          | amboŋ     | sleep       |           |         | ambem      | go to sleep | ma-mb-  |
| i |           |            |          |          | biŋ       | be clean    | bin       | clean   |            |             |         |
| t |           |            |          |          | dyoŋ      | come from   |           |         | dyem       | leave       |         |
| t | eserap    | eat        |          |          | eŋorap    | be full     | enerap    | eat     |            |             | ma--rap |
| i |           |            |          |          | soŋ       | be dead     |           |         | sem        | die         |         |
| i | esoʼx     | run        |          |          |           |             |           |         |            |             |         |
| i | essen     | fly        |          |          |           |             | ensen     | glide   |            |             | maʼ-    |
| t | fes       | be at      | fe       | be at    | foŋ       | be at       |           |         | fem        | arrive at   | maʼ-    |
| i | fes       | climb      |          |          | foŋ       | be high     |           |         |            |             |         |
| i | fŋis      | crumble    | fŋi      | shed     | fŋiŋ      | be broken   | fŋin      | grind   | fŋim       | break       |         |
| i |           |            |          |          | foyŋ      | be awake    |           |         | feym       | wake up     |         |
| i | ises      | come       | ise      | come     | isoŋ      | be here     |           |         |            |             | mo-ys-  |
| t |           |            | isnicap  | shoot at |           |             |           |         | isnimap    | shoot       | maʼ-    |
| t | lses      | search     |          |          | lsoŋ      | see         | lsen      | look    |            |             |         |
| t |           |            | lsesus   | hear     |           |             | lsensus   | listen  |            |             |         |
| t |           |            | leselbuʼ | think    | lesŋulbuʼ | know        |           |         |            |             |         |
| i |           |            |          |          | muŋ       | be confused | mun       | shake   |            |             | moʼ-    |
| t | ndos      | circle     | ndok     | bypass   | ndoŋ      | be past     |           |         | ndom       | pass        |         |
| i | ndus      | roll       |          |          |           |             | ndun      | twist   |            |             |         |
| i | senŋaʼ    | walk       | anŋaʼ    | stroll   |           |             | enŋaʼ     | stride  |            |             | maʼ-    |
| d | pasis     | transfer   |          |          |           |             |           |         | pasim      | give        |         |
| t | pkeys     | beat       | pkey     | hit      |           |             |           |         |            |             |         |
| t | rwes      | accumulate |          |          | rwoŋ      | have        |           |         | rwem       | take        |         |
| i | teys      | tumble     | tey      | stumble  | toyŋ      | be fallen   | teyn      | destroy | teym       | fall        |         |
| t |           |            |          |          | tuʼŋ      | accompany   | tuʼn      | follow  |            |             |         |
| i | us        | talk       | u        | speak    |           |             |           |         |            |             | maʼ-    |
| i | usaʼeʼ    | laugh      | uwaʼeʼ   | laugh    |           |             | unaʼeʼ    | laugh   |            |             | maʼ-    |
| i | usfeʼ     | cry        | ufeʼ     | sob      |           |             | unfeʼ     | wail    |            |             | maʼ-    |
| i | wales     | go         | wale     | go       | waloŋ     | be gone     | walen     | travel  |            |             |         |
| t |           | be at      | wgi      | be       | wgiŋ      | be          |           |         | wgim/wreym | become      |         |
| t | weʼs      | do         | weʼ      | do       | woʼŋ      | do          | weʼn      | do      | (mem       | do)         |         |
| t |           |            |          |          | woŋses    | want        | wenses    | love    |            |             |         |
| t | wserfin   | construct  | warfin   | imagine  |           |             | wnerfin   | make    |            |             |         |
| t |           |            |          |          |           |             |           |         | wsim       | touch       |         |
Some notes:
  • The first column shows transitivity: intransitive/transitive/ditransitive. The last column shows the negative form of the verb root, from which can also be deduced the form of vowel-initial verbs in hiatus.
  • This only includes verb stems derived directly from verbal roots + aspectual markers. It doesn’t include, for instance, verbs derived from these with the auxiliary (which are very common in actual text).
  • Blank cells don’t necessarily indicate that there exists ‘no such verb’ — the aspectual system remains productive and speakers can easily derive new verbs to fit in the blank cells if they see fit. However, it can be said that the verbs given here are the most lexicalised and common.
  • The glosses given here are very approximate! Thus, to take but a single example, fes is glossed as ‘be at’, but a full definition would be more like: ‘be or arrive at a location, of many small objects or of an object spread out along a path’. (Much of this can be deduced from the combination of √fe- ‘be at’ + -s ‘iterative aspect’, though this is not always the case.)
  • There are precisely two verbs which don’t fit well into the aspectual system. One is wgim ‘become’, which is interchangeable with (and in fact less common than) the irregular form wreym. Another is mem ‘do’, whose semantics suggest it is the punctual form of √w-ʼ- ‘do’, but whose form doesn’t match up. There are no other cases where a semantically coherent set of verbs seems to be derived from two different roots.
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bradrn
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Copulative and locative clauses

This one’s another old post which I’m finally completing now. In fact, it dates all the way back to the 2024 relay, when I realised that I’d gotten myself horribly confused last I tried to explain the use of the copula(e). For reference, here’s how I explained it back then:
bradrn wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 8:12 pm Similarly, one can add another noun to the end of a focus construction. This has a basically copulative meaning, yielding statements of class-membership or identity: bani wnus ‘I am a man’, bani bradrn ‘I am bradrn’. (Contrast with the verbal equivalent, si-bradrn bwafwe ‘I am named bradrn’. In this case you can’t use wgiŋ ‘to be’, although this would be the usual copulative verb for other situations like eŋe wgiŋ pyaʼpun ‘that one is grey’.)

(Note that this ‘copula’ has very restricted usage — it appears mostly when both things being equated are nouns, and for presentational sentences only when one is adverbial. It is not used for adjectival predication, which uses the verbal auxiliary, nor with locational expressions, which as seen in the last example use verbs like foŋ ‘stand’.)
So, let’s try again, rather more carefully this time…

I’ll begin by discussing the focus markers. (The most common is ni, which is what that quote uses above, but all nine behave the same way in this regard.) When used with a single NP, plus optionally an adverb and final particle, the basic meaning is existential, or pointing out the presence of something:

Dgasaŋnap ni (aŋan).
[dga.saŋˈnap̚.ni aˌŋan]
dgasaŋnap ni (aŋan)
island FOC (there)
There’s an island (over there).

It’s easy enough to see how this gets generalised to statements of identity, simply by swapping out the adverb for an NP:

Dgasaŋnap ni Mulu.
[dga.saŋˈnap.ni muˌlu]
dgasaŋnap ni Mulu
island FOC Mulu
[The] island is Mulu. (lit. There’s an island, Mulu.)

Baŋomoʼ ŋoʼanles ni Psamraʼr.
[ba.ŋo.moʔ.noʔ.anˈles.ni psamˈraʔʒ]
baŋo-moʼ oŋo-anles ni Psamraʼr
1p.ALN-village 3s.ALN-chief FOC Psamraʼr
The chief of our village is Psamraʼr.

It can be used easily in a verbal clause too (and note how English can also use an existential here):

Anles ni ina us sitemim.
[anˈles.ni i.na.us.si.teˈmim]
anles ni ina us si-temi·m
king FOC son three PFV-bear
There was a king who had three sons.

The common thread linking these usages is that they are all presentational or specificational: they present a new referent by specifying what it is (The terms are from Leon Stassen.) Verbal focal clauses can have other interpretations, but for verbless clauses this is a requirement.



So what about referents which aren’t new? In this situation we instead want a predicational clause, in which some fact is asserted about an already-known subject. That fact might be that it the same as something else, or that it is a member of some class, or that it has some property. Either way, the non-verbal construction is inadmissible, so instead Eŋes uses one of its copular verbs in √wgi-. Consulting the previous post, we see that there are three such verbs, namely:
  • Atelic wgi, used when the predication is temporary, transient or for a short period of time.
  • Stative wgiŋ, used when the predication is permanent or for a long period of time.
  • Punctual wreym/wgim is used to indicate entrance into some state or configuration, as with English ‘become’ or ‘turn into’.
In general all three of these are less common than one might expect: nearly always Eŋes uses a verb or verbalised adjective for properties. However, examples aren’t too hard to find. Here’s a near-minimal triplet using similar sentences to the quoted post:

Banaʼ pyaʼ towgi pun.
[ba.naʔ.pjaʔ.tow.ɟiˈpun]
banaʼ ∅-pyaʼ to-wgi pun
sky 3s-colour DEF.SG-be grey
The sky is (currently) grey.

Tsa pyaʼ towgiŋ pun.
[tsa.pjaʔ.tow.ɟimˈpun]
tsa ∅-pyaʼ to-wgi·ŋ pun
moon 3s-colour DEF.SG-be·STAT grey
The moon is (inherently) grey.

Banaʼ pyaʼ towreym pun.
[ba.naʔ.pjaʔ.tow.rejmˈpun]
banaʼ ∅-pyaʼ to-wreym pun
sky 3s-colour DEF.SG-be.PUNCT grey
The sky is (getting) grey.



The final copula-like verb root mentioned in that quote is √f- ‘be at’, used to give a location. Again consulting the previous post, we see that there are four verbs in √f-:
  • fe, foŋ, fem are comparable in meaning to wgi, wgiŋ, wreym.
  • Iterative fes is more subtle: it is used of many objects, or of an object strung or spread out along a path, which arrive at a location at differing times.
Again, examples may clarify, though I don’t have any neat minimal pairs this time:

Say bfe.
[sajˈbve]
say b-fe
home 1s-be.at
I am at home (right now)

Dgasfeʼ tofoŋ Stanten per.
[dgas.feʔ.toˌfoŋ.stan.tenˈpeʒ]
dgasfeʼ to-fo·ŋ Stanten ∅-per
hill DEF.SG-be.at·STAT Stanten 3s-near
The hill is located (permanantly) at Stanten.

Seʼnir sArnim mbifem?
[seʔ.niɾ.saɾ.nim.mbiˈfem]
seʼnir s-Arnim mbi-fe·m
today ACC-Arnim 2Q-be.at·PUNCT
Did you visit Arnim today?

Iŋsiyses sebgosay fem.
[iŋ.sijˌses.seb̚.ɡo.sajˈfem]
iŋ-si-is·es se-bgo-say fe·m
3p-PFV-come ACC-1s.ALN-house be.at·ITER
They all came to my house (arriving individually).

Of these verbs, foŋ in particular is often extended to non-spatial uses. I’ll say more about those in a future post.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
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bradrn
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Applicatives

In Eŋes, there are four morphemes which could be called ‘applicatives’:
  1. Benefactive -pes
  2. Locative -fas~far
  3. Comitative -tof
  4. Auxiliary wa-
However, these are not all comparable in their behaviour. The first three form a paradigm, occurring as the last element of the verb core (before an object); the third can also appear as part of NPs; and the fourth, as previously discussed, has multiple functions.

Revision: Eŋes clause structure

But before discussing applicatives in detail, it’s worth recalling the basic structure of Eŋes clauses, which (ignoring pronominal subjects and focalisation) is:
(subject) (ACC-preverbal object) VERB (postv[TODO]erbal object)
When the verb is divalent, the NP may go in either of the object slots. The positioning depends on information structure: new NPs are generally postverbal. So are pronouns.

When the verb is trivalent, however, both object slots are filled. The theme is preverbal, while the recipient is postverbal:

Sinwun bsipasimi.
[sin.wun.bzi.paˈsim.i]
si-nwun b-si-pasi·m-i
ACC-water 1s-PFV-give-3s
I gave the water to him.

However, note that we cannot identify clearly either of these slots as being a ‘direct’ or ‘indirect’ object! The object of transitive verbs can go in either one.

Beyond these three argument positions, Eŋes verbs admit no further core arguments. And there are no adpositions, so no way to provide NPs except as core arguments. Therefore, Eŋes needs other techniques…

Benefactive

The first morpheme I’ll discuss is the benefactive -pes. In its most basic usage, it denotes, well, a beneficiary:

Nwun bwelrwempesdin.
[nwun.bwel.rwemˈpes.din]
nwun b-wel-rwem-pes-din
water 1s-PROSP-take-BEN-2s
I’ll get some water for you.

Already here we can see some important properties of this construction:
  • It is valency-increasing: it adds a new object which wasn’t previously present. (Pedants would say that this disqualifies the construction from strict ‘applicative’-hood.)
  • When there is another object, that one becomes preverbal, and the new object is postverbal (i.e. following -pes).
Furthermore, if there is no other object — i.e. when -pes is added to an intransitive verb — the beneficiary can be placed either preverbally or postverbally, like any other object. (We’ll see examples of both below.)

Aside from marking a beneficiary, -pes is also commonly used to add a recipient:

Upesban.
[uˈpes.ban]
∅-u-pes-ban
3s-speak-BEN-1s
He was talking to me.

The recipient may not be a ‘beneficiary’, strictly speaking:

Siwsinonapes Nurnim.
[siw.si.no.naˌpes.nuɾˈnim]
∅-si-wsinona-pes Nurnim
3s-PFV-growl-BEN Nurnim
It growled at Nurnim.

And in some cases the interpretation is definitely malefactive:

Senwun bsarisrwoŋ, bgopomay tosifŋimpesban.
[sen.wun.bza.risˌrwoŋ | bgo.po.majˌto.sif.ŋimˈpes.ban]
se-nwun b-sar-is-rwoŋ, bgo-pomay to-si-fŋim-pes-ban
ACC-water 1s-PROG-come-carry, 1s.ALN-pot DEF.SG-PERF-break-BEN-1s
Carrying back the water, my pot broke on me.

Similar to this case is its usage with the verbs √u-feʼ ‘cry’ and √u-aʼeʼ ‘laugh’, to add a stimulus:

Ba-usaʼeʼpesi.
[ba.u.saʔ.eʔˈpes.i]
ba-usaʼeʼ-pes-i
1p-laugh-BEN-3s
We were laughing at him.

(With most other verbs a stimulus is added using the auxiliary rather than with an applicative; see below.)

Along the same lines, it is found with adjectives, both positive and negative:

Nos towrawpesi.
[nos.tow.rawˈpes.i]
nos to-w·raw-pes-i
that DEF.SG-AUX·good-BEN-3s
That was good for him.

A final use is to ask ‘why’ questions:

Nani mbiysempes?
[naˌni.mbij.semˈpes]
na-ni mbi-is·en-pes
what-FOC 2s.Q-come·INT-BEN
Why (lit. for what) did you come?

Locative

The locative -fas~far has essentially the same syntactic behaviour as the benefactive (albeit with the complication of having two stems). It is probably the most common of the morphemes to be found in this verb-final slot.

In most cases, -fas~far denotes a location or a destination (but never a source). The following two clauses from the 2024 translation relay (adapted slightly to modern Eŋes) exemplify these two uses:

Nampasinsef sis towasnarfas.
[nam.pa.sinˌsef.sisˌto.was.naɾˈfas]
nampasinsef s-∅-tis to-wa·snar-fas
light ACC-3s.INALN-bottom DEF.SG-AUX·wide-LOC
The light widened below.

[…] isenmastanfas anrwes oŋofeʼ.
[… i.sen.mas.tanˌfas.an.rwes.o.ŋoˈfeʔ]
[…] is-enmas-tan-fas an·rwes oŋo-feʼ
[…] come-fly-down-LOC hunting 3s.POSS·place
[…] flew down to the hunting place.

Though the complement is usually a locative noun, it doesn’t strictly speaking need to be one (compare French chez):

Baserapfas Mŋunsim.
[ba.se.rap̚ˌfas.mŋunˈsim]
ba-eserap-fas Mŋunsim
1p-eat-LOC Mŋunsim
We were eating at Mŋunsim’s house.

There are also more metaphorical uses, with essentially the same range as foŋ (mentioned in the last post). For instance, with speach verbs it can introduce a topic:

sArnim basiʼusfar.
[saɾˌnim.ba.siʔ.usˈfaʒ]
s-Arnim ba-si-us-far
ACC-Arnim 1p-PFV-talk-LOC.B
We were talking about Arnim.

Comitative

The comitative tof is more complex in its syntax than the benefactive or locative. Like them, it can appear in the applicative slot after a verb:

Sipkeyntof Psamraʼr.
[sip̚.kejnˌtof.psamˈraʔʒ]
∅-si-pkeyn-tof Psamraʼr
3s-PFV-fight-COM Psamraʼr
S/he fought with Psamraʼr.

However, when the subject or object is a full NP, tof and its complement can detach from the verb entirely and move into the NP, like so:

Arnim tof Psamraʼr iŋsipkeyn.
[aɾˌnim.tof.psamˌraʔʒ.iŋ.sip̚ˈkejn]
Arnim tof Psamraʼr iŋ-si-pkeyn
Arnim COM Psamraˊr 3p-PFV-fight
Arnim and Psamraʼr fought.

No other morpheme in Eŋes behaves quite like this: tof is the only element which can occur between two NPs. The result is itself an NP, as shown by the plural person marking [which I forgot in the first version of this post, oops…].

Note that the comitative can be ambiguous, as in the following sentence:

sArnim bsilsontofi.
[saɾˌnim.bzil.soŋˈtof.i]
s-Arnim b-si-lsoŋ-tof-i
ACC-Arnim 1s-PFV-see-COM-3s
I saw Arnim with him.

Was he with Arnim, or with me? In both English and Eŋes it’s ambiguous. Moving the tof-phrase to the object NP forces the first interpretation:

sArnim tofi bsilsoŋ.
[saɾˌnim.tof.i.bzilˈsoŋ]
s-Arnim tof-i b-si-lsoŋ
ACC-Arnim COM-3s 1s-PFV-see
I saw Arnim and him.

(Note, incidentally, that tof still takes an object pronoun even when it’s not part of the verb complex.)

But how to force the second interpretation? After all, there is no subject NP to add the comitative to. The answer is to use a focus construction, which is as close to a free pronoun as Eŋes gets:

Batofini sArnim silsoŋ.
[ba.tof.iˌni.saɾˌnim.silˈsoŋ]
ba-tof-i-ni s-Arnim si-lsoŋ
1s-COM-3s-FOC ACC-Arnim PFV-see
It was me and him who saw Arnim.

This way it’s possible to make some forbidding-looking NPs:

Aŋaytofbannyan.
[a.ŋaj.tof.banˈnjan]
aŋay-tof-ban-nyan
3s-COM-1s-FOC.only
There was just him and me.

That said, a native speaker might prefer to rephrase this as:

Aŋayni tuʼmban, naʼonda.
[a.ŋajˌniˈtuʔm.ban ˈnaʔ.on.da]
aŋay-ni tuʼŋ-ban, naʼo-onda
3s-FOC accompany-1s, noone-but.not
He was there accompanying me, no-one else.

(Also worth noting: for some speakers verbal -tof alternates with a B stem -nef, but not in NPs. But thankfully this isn’t standard in the variety discussed here.)

Auxiliary

The auxiliary has three big differences from the other forms mentioned above:
  • It is derivational, applying to individual verb stems rather than the whole verb complex.
  • It has causative uses as well as applicative ones (in fact more frequently).
  • The applicative object is invariably preverbal rather than postverbal; correspondingly any previous object is moved after the verb rather than before it.
Since I’ve discussed the auxiliary already, I’ll be brief here, focussing only on its applicative uses. These are less predictable and more lexicalised than the applicatives discussed above (again, since this is derivational), but systematic enough to describe.

Probably the most common situation in which the auxiliary has an applicative meaning is what I call the instrumental alternation, in which a verb gains an instrument as an object. An example of such a verb is pkeyn (also seen above):

Basipkeyn. / Seʼ basiwapkeyn.
[ba.sip̚ˈkejn] / [seʔ.ba.si.wap̚ˈkejn]
ba-si-pkeyn / s-seʼ ba-si-wa·pkeyn
1p-PFV-fight / ACC-knife 1p-PFV-AUX·fight
We fought. / We fought with knives.

This is quite a systematic alternation, and I note in the dictionary when a verb has instrumental forms.

Another common use is to add a stimulus for many verbs of mental state (most notably excluding ‘cry’ and ‘laugh’ as mentioned above):

Bmuŋ. / Se bwamuŋ.
[bmuŋ] / [se.bwaˈmuŋ]
b-muŋ / s-te b-wa·muŋ
1s-confused / ACC-that 1s-AUX·confused
I’m confused. / That confuses me.

Finally, it can be used with comitative meaning:

Sarwalen. / Sarwawalemban.
[saɾ.waˈlen] / [saɾ.wa.waˈlem.ban]
∅-sar-walen / ∅-sar-wa·walen-ban
3s-PROG-travel / 3s-PROG-AUX·travel-1s
He is travelling. / He is travelling with me.

A few verbs don’t fit into one of the above patterns, e.g. fasŋorba ‘sit’ / wfasŋorba ‘sit on’, but they’re still in the same general semantic domain (e.g. in this case you could consider the ‘on’ argument to be an instrument).
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices

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Glenn
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Glenn »

I finished reading your post on applicatives, and Eŋes continues to be extremely interesting. I can understand if you don't have the time, but I think that adding glosses to the post would be helpful.

One minor question: is there a distinction between the two forms of the Locative applicative (-fas~far), either in meaning, or where they are used (applied to different verbs, etc.)?
bradrn
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Glenn wrote: Sun Sep 07, 2025 8:15 pm I finished reading your post on applicatives, and Eŋes continues to be extremely interesting. I can understand if you don't have the time, but I think that adding glosses to the post would be helpful.
Soon, I hope!
One minor question: is there a distinction between the two forms of the Locative applicative (-fas~far), either in meaning, or where they are used (applied to different verbs, etc.)?
This is the same A/B aspectual alternation which applies to many of the other verboids.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Ares Land »

Nothing really specific to comment on, but I thought I'd mention this keep on being extremely interesting.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Sep 09, 2025 3:28 am Nothing really specific to comment on, but I thought I'd mention this keep on being extremely interesting.
Thank you!
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Man in Space »

Ares Land wrote: Tue Sep 09, 2025 3:28 am Nothing really specific to comment on, but I thought I'd mention this keep on being extremely interesting.
Seconded.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Finally got around to adding glosses to the previous post. (And in the process fixed a few errors, the most egregious of which was attempting to mark one verb for two different subjects at the same time.) IPA, alas, will have to wait until I get my IPA keyboard set up again.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Man in Space »

bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 7:45 amIPA, alas, will have to wait until I get my IPA keyboard set up again.
You may find this tool of utility in the meantime.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Travis B. »

Man in Space wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 10:46 am
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 7:45 amIPA, alas, will have to wait until I get my IPA keyboard set up again.
You may find this tool of utility in the meantime.
I was going to say -- there are a number of X-SAMPA to IPA converters out there on the web. I typically use this one.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Man in Space wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 10:46 am
bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 7:45 amIPA, alas, will have to wait until I get my IPA keyboard set up again.
You may find this tool of utility in the meantime.
I find those web-based tools so annoying. Luckily, I don’t have to use them, because I did manage to set up my IPA keyboard already!
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

IPA done!
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Glenn »

bradrn wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 7:45 am Finally got around to adding glosses to the previous post. (And in the process fixed a few errors, the most egregious of which was attempting to mark one verb for two different subjects at the same time.) IPA, alas, will have to wait until I get my IPA keyboard set up again.
Thank you for adding the glosses! I was able to get the gist of the examples without them, but the glosses definitely helped to clarify the details of the morphology.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Travis B. »

bradrn wrote: Sat Aug 30, 2025 7:53 am Basipkeyn. / Seʼ basiwapkeyn.
[ba.sip̚ˈkeyn] / [seʔ.ba.si.wap̚ˈkejn]
ba-si-pkeyn / s-seʼ ba-si-wa·pkeyn
1p-PFV-fight / ACC-knife 1p-PFV-AUX·fight
We fought. / We fought with knives.
I presume you mean [ba.sip̚ˈkejn] here.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

Travis B. wrote: Wed Sep 17, 2025 10:23 pm
bradrn wrote: Sat Aug 30, 2025 7:53 am Basipkeyn. / Seʼ basiwapkeyn.
[ba.sip̚ˈkeyn] / [seʔ.ba.si.wap̚ˈkejn]
ba-si-pkeyn / s-seʼ ba-si-wa·pkeyn
1p-PFV-fight / ACC-knife 1p-PFV-AUX·fight
We fought. / We fought with knives.
I presume you mean [ba.sip̚ˈkejn] here.
Yes, correct.
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by bradrn »

TAM markers

It’s a bit surprising to realise that I’ve gotten this far without describing the TAM verboids, given their importance in Eŋes. Let’s fix that!

To summarise… there are 11 TAM verboids which can occupy the first slot after negation in the verb core. (The list has changed somewhat since the last time I mentioned them.) Of these, seven trigger the ‘A’ forms of subsequent verboids, while the other four trigger their ‘B’ forms.

(I used to split up these forms further into ‘aspectual’ and ‘modal’ verboids, but language-internally there’s really no reason to distinguish the two.)

‘A’ triggers

Of the TAM markers which trigger ‘A’ forms, probably the most common is the progressive aspect sar-. Its most basic use is for an action which is ongoing as of the time of reference:

Bsareserapi.
[bza.re.seˈra.pi]
b-sar-eserap-i
1s-PROG-eat-3s
I’m eating. / I was eating. / I’ll be eating.

Combined with another clause, it often marks simultaneous actions:

Basiwus basareserapi.
[ba.siˌwus.ba.sa.re.seˈra.pi]
ba-siw-us ba-sar-eserap-i
1p-PFV-talk 1p-PROG-eat-3s
We talked while eating.

A particularly common use is with perception verbs, where English would use subordination:

Blsoŋi sareserapi.
[bə̆ˌlzo.ŋi.sa.re.seˈra.pi]
b-lsoŋ-i ∅-sar-eserap-i
1s-see-3s 3s-PROG-eat-3s
I can see him eating.

However, sar- may not be used with verbs with stative or punctual meanings. Thus *iŋsarfoŋi ‘they are being there’ and *bsarpkeyi ‘I am knocking it’ are unacceptable, but iŋsarfesi ‘they are arriving there’ and bsarpkeysi ‘I am beating it’ are fine. (As in these examples, moving to the corresponding iterative stem is a common way of rescuing such sentences.)



The habitual fas- is pretty straightforwardly translatable as ‘usually’, ‘used to’, etc.:

Nwun sintowenar.
[nwun.sin.to.weˈnaʒ]
nwun sin-to-w·enar
water here-DEF.SG-AUX·warm
The water here is usually warm.

There’s not a huge amount more to say about it; habituals don’t seem to vary much cross-linguistically. It is worth noting though that the Eŋes habitual is not used for generic or law-like sentences. (These take unmarked aspect instead; see below. It does also mean that the second sentence here was probably wrong.)



The marker gi- is translatable as ‘can’, in the sense of ‘know how to’, ‘have the capacity to’:

Bgiʼesib.
[bɟiʔ.esˈib̚]
b-gi-esib
1s-can-swim
I can swim. / I know how to swim.

Bgiʼeserapi.
[bɟiʔ.e.se.ˈra.pii]
b-gi-eserap-i
1s-can-eat-3s
I can eat. (said e.g. if one is not full yet, or if one has dietary restrictions)

The marker rwelbu- is also translatable as ‘can’, this time in the sense of ‘may’, ‘be allowed to’:

Brwelbuʼesib.
[bə̆.rwel.buʔ.esˈib̚]
b-rwelbu-esib
1s-may-swim
I can swim. / I may swim. / I am allowed to swim.

Brwelbuʼeserapi.
[bə̆.rwel.buʔ.e.se.ˈra.pii]
b-rwelbu-eserap-i
1s-may-eat-3s
I can eat / I may eat. (said e.g. if one has restrictions imposed by another on one’s eating)

How do you know whether to use gi- or rwelbu-? As a first approximation, if you can use English ‘may’, then rwelbu- is more appropriate. At a second approximation, it basically depends on whether the ability is due to one’s own capabilities (gi-) or is permitted by some other entity out of one’s control (rwelbu-).

Sometimes the choice might be unexpected to an English-speaker, as in for instance:

Seʼnir barwelburwesiŋgi-ey.
[seʔˈniʒ ba.rwel.buɾ.we.siɲˈɟi.ej]
seʼnir ba-rwelbu-rwes-in-gi-ey
today 1p-may-collect-come-enter-3p
Today we can do the harvest.

The use of rwelbu- suggests that this is allowed by, say, the weather being good. (Whereas in English it would sound very odd to use may with regards to the weather — though it’s worth noting that the Eŋes consider weather patterns to be under supernatural control.) On the other hand gi- would be actively wrong here, unless for instance it was a case of actual physical impairment (and even then it might have been caused by someone or something else).



The modals gam- and fasfin- are another pair with very similar meanings: they’re both translatable as ‘must’. Unfortunately, English has no convenient words to gloss the distinction (unlike with gi-/rwelbu-).

The difference between the two is essentially similar to that above: gam- is to fasfin- as gi- is to rwelbu-. That is, use gam- if you have to do something due to some sort of internal pressure, whereas use fasfin- if something or someone else is forcing you to do it.

Some examples might clarify. Parallel to those given above, we might say:

Bgamesib. I have to swim (…because I’m hot and want to cool down)
Bfasfinesib. I have to swim (…because I’m trapped on an island, or a man with a knife is forcing me to do it)

Bgameserapi. I have to eat (…because I’m hungry)
Bfasfineserapi. I have to eat (…because my hosts would be offended otherwise)

Of the first pair above, with those meanings, fasfin- feels more natural to me (though see below for other meanings): it’s a bit weird to say ‘I must swim‘ in the first place, and if it is said there’s probably some external reason for it. In the second pair, it’s the reverse: gam- feels more natural, because generally you eat because your own hunger forces you to, not because of anyone else.

In colloquial speech, these markers are also used as an alternative to the full verb √w-ses ‘want’. This is especially the case of gam-: thus the most common interpretation of bgamesib above would in fact be I want to swim. In this case fasfin- is not possible, since the wanting comes from the same person as the swimming.

On the other hand, fasfin- is the usual way to talk about someone else’s wants, almost invariably with another clause to state who the other person is. Changing the other verb can produce various other kinds of desiderative, for instance:

Aŋaʼni uceʼu bfasfinwalesib.
[aˌŋaʔ.ni u.t͡ʃeʔˌu.bvas.fin.wa.leˈsib]
aŋaʼ-ni uceʼu b-fasfin-wal-esib
DIST.person-FOC ask 1s-must-go-swim
That man requested that I swim. (i.e. That man asked, I must go swim.)

Along similar lines, there is one more thing worth noting… there is an English literary usage in which ‘must’ can be used as past tense, where colloquial English would use ‘must have’ or ‘had to’. For instance:
Poul Anderson wrote: I'd reserved at a big hotel nearby, where the staff would have seen everything and be blasé. Nevertheless I must fend off several well-intentioned remarks and glimpsed a number of raised eyebrows.
Operation Luna (1999)
Since Eŋes, of course, doesn’t mark tense regularly, in such a situation it is perfectly natural to use a modal. An Eŋes speaker would probably translate this quote with something like … băbugamwismopugwal … (the choice because, in context, he doesn’t want to answer inconvenient questions, not because he couldn’t get away with it otherwise).



Another difficult — but annoyingly common — marker is wraŋ- (variant form wran-), for which we can distinguish four major uses. Probably the most straightforward is its use to introduce a simile: the verb with wraŋ- is not to be taken literally, but acts as a comparison for the preceding clause. Thus one might say, for instance:

Fasesib trem wraŋwgiŋ
[fa.seˌsib̚.trem.wraŋˈwɟiŋ]
∅-fas-esib trem ∅-wraŋ-wgiŋ
3s-swim lizard 3s-like-be
He swims like [lit. as if he were] a lizard.

Closely related to this is its use to indicate the manner in which an action is formed (somewhat similar to the English adverbialiser ‘-ly’). This usage is seen in the following example from the 2024 Translation Relay (slightly adjusted for modern Eŋes):

[…] taŋsarusnunu wrantempaki.
[… taŋ.sa.rus.nuˌnu.wran.temˈpa.ki]
taŋ-sar-usnunu ∅-wran-tempak-i
DEF.PL-PROG-growl 3-like-attack-3s
[… they] growled aggressively [lit. as if to attack].

(Incidentally, note the odd subject marking here: in these sorts of constructions it is increasingly common to use a 3s null subject marker rather than the ‘correct’ 3p marker iŋ-.)

Most commonly wraŋ- is encountered alongside another clause (as in the above examples), but it can also be used on its own. Oftentimes this can be glossed by English ‘seem’, ‘apparently’ or even ‘must’, as in this example from the Conlang Fluency Thread:
bradrn wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 9:18 am Stili anwase we ni towraŋwgiŋ.
[stiˈli.an.wa.se.we.ni tow.raŋˈwɟiŋ]
stili an-wa·se we ni to-wraŋ-wgi·ŋ
‘stele’ AGT-AUX·die seven FOC DEF.SG-seem-be

It looks like the Seven Kill Stele
In this usage wraŋ- suggests that the statement is not known for sure, but rather is inferred from other, more direct evidence. (In this regard it overlaps somewhat with the preverbal evidential tow-, though that has no such overtones of uncertainty.) Literally, the verb complex above could be translated ‘it appears to be’.

Finally, on occasion wraŋ- can take on a meaning of ‘barely’ or ‘only just’. Another example from the 2024 relay demonstrates this:

[…] wranwniseʼ sfeʼlsefeynfas foŋ […]
[wran.wniˌseʔ.sfeʔl.se.fejn.fasˈfoŋ]
∅-wran-w·niseʼ s-feʼlsefeynfas foŋ
3s-barely-visible ACC-horizon be.at
[… it] was just visible on the horizon […]

What is the common thread behind these disparate meanings? I think it’s ultimately related to an idea that the speaker is in some way not fully standing behind their statement — somewhat akin to the subjunctive in languages with a true mood system. But to be honest I’m not entirely sure how wraŋ- ended up with this particular range of meanings.



Arguably the null marker can be treated as an aspect marker of its own, triggering ‘A’ forms. To a large extent it could be considered a ‘none of the above’ marker, but we can identify a few situations where it is used consistently:
  • The null aspect is the usual choice for stative verbs, which are limited in their aspectual co-occurrence, and which in particular may not co-occur with the most common markers sar- and si-.
  • As mentioned above, generic or law-like sentences take a null marker, rather than a habitual.
  • Clauses with ‘irrealis’ meaning — negatives, questions, hypotheticals and the like — often take a null marker, even when a more specific aspect is available.
  • In ‘close coordination’ constructions, generally the focussed verb takes an aspect marker while the other verb(s) have null marking, as in this example from the 2024 relay (again updated slightly):

    Seŋoru siwumwamun, siwelessenfeŋ simayŋgar dyem.
    [se.ŋo.ru.si.wum.waˌmun si.we.les.senˌfeŋ.si.majˈŋɡaʒˌdjem]
    se-oŋo-iru ∅-siw-um-wa·mun, ∅-si-wel-essen-feŋ s-imayngar ∅-∅-dyem
    ACC-3s.POSS-feather 3s-PFV-go.about.B-shake, 3s-PFV-go.B-fly-exit.B ACC-nest 3s-NULL-leave
    [She] shook her feathers and flew out of the nest.
  • The ‘reportive present’ (see below).


‘B’ triggers

The most common aspect marker triggering ‘B’ forms is the perfective si- (alternately siw-, especially before a vowel). The prototypical use of this form is for a completed, punctual event in the past:

Fey tosifŋim.
[fej.to.sifˈŋim]
fey to-si-fŋim
axe DEF.SG-PFV-break
The axe broke.

It is widely used of durative events too, especially when completed or seen as a whole. An example of this was already shown above, with siwelessenfeŋ ‘flew out’. The only verbs which are intrinsically incompatible with the perfective are stative verbs: thus e.g. *sifŋiŋ ‘it was broken’ is forbidden (as tempting as it might seem to an English-speaker).

As in the above examples the perfective usually has past time reference. It may also refer to a future event seen as a whole (though examples are hard to quote without context). However, it is incompatible with present time reference, even in the so-called ‘reportive present’: when reporting an action happening right at this moment, use the progressive (for durative actions) or no aspect marker at all (especially for punctual actions).

In combination with other clauses, the perfective generally indicates sequential events: for instance, as in the example above from the 2024 relay. This is especially prominent in narratives, in which the main line of the story will be mostly or entirely in the perfective.



The two markers isay- and wel- are the only TAM markers whose meanings are primarily temporal. We may describe isay- as a perfect, denoting an action which took place prior to the time of reference; similarly, wel- is a prospective, denoting an action which will take place later than the time of reference.

Used alone, isay- takes on a similar range of meanings to the English perfect, denoting a prior state with current relevance:

Bisayeserapi.
[bi.sa.je.seˈra.pi]
b-isay-eserap-i
1s-PERF-eat-3s
I’ve eaten.

However, unlike English, it cannot denote states continuing to the present:

Sin bfoŋisay/*bisayfoŋisay dyoŋ mec us.
I have been living here for three years.

Also unlike English, it can act as a recent past tense, especially for actions which took place within the past day:

Ken bisayfeym seʼnir foŋ.
[ˌken bi.sayˈfejm seʔ.niɾˌfoŋ]
ken b-isay-feym seʼnir foŋ
late 1s-PERF-wake.up today be.at
I woke up/*have woken up late today.

Correspondingly, the prospective wel- has much the same range as English ‘going to’, expressing an event which is about to happen.

However, isay- and wel- are more often found in combination with another clause specifying an event at some time. In this situation they may be translated by ‘after’ and ‘before’ respectively, or with a participle:

Nweleserapi, nwun nwabin ndodfin.
[nwe.le.seˌra.pi nwun.nwaˈbin.ndod̚.fin]
n-wel-eserap-i, nwun n-wa·bin ndo-dfin
2s-PROSP-eat-3s, water 2s-with·clean 2.ALN-hand
Wash your hands before eating. (lit. … going to eat)

Disaywandiʼs bagisnimuri.
[di.saj.wanˌdiʔs ba.ɟis.niˈmu.ri]
d-isay-wa·ndiʼs ba-gi-isnimur-i
2p-PERF-be.ready 1p-can-begin-3s
Once you’re all ready, we can start. (lit. You having been ready…)

In many cases they express a causal relation as well as a temporal one, indicating a reason or a purpose, e.g.:

Iŋsifemi iŋwelpkeysemey.
[iŋ.siˌfe.mi iŋ.wel.pʰkejˈse.mej]
iŋ-si-fem-i iŋ-wel-pkey-sem-ey
3p-PFV-arrive-3s 3p-PROSP-hit-die-3p
They came in order to kill them. (lit. … going to strike them dead)

The form wel- is transparently related to the andative verboid wel- ‘going’; similarly isay- is related to the venitive yos(y)- ‘coming’. Although they have grammaticalised in different ways, these forms remain incompatible with each other: neither wel- nor isay- may be immediately followed by a motional verboid. In such a situation one must either omit the aspect marker, or choose a verb which does not require a motional marker (as in iŋsimfemi above).



The last aspect marker is the repetitive ye-. As with wel- this is transparently related to another verboid, in this case -ye ‘returning’. However the co-occurrence restrictions on ye- are not nearly as severe as those on wel-, though using ye- and -ye together is best avoided.

Most commonly this marker means ‘again’, as in this example from the 2024 Translation Relay (once again updated):

Kmatrob yeʼumndun, dantaŋsiweltuʼni.
[kʰma.tʰrob̚.jeʔ.umˌndun dan.taŋ.si.welˈtuʔ.ni]
kmat-rob ye-um-ndun, dan-tan-si-wel-tuʼn-i
wing-black REP-about-turn, so-DEF.PL-PFV-go-follow-3s
Again Blackwing turned, so [the others] followed.

It can also mean ‘still’, for instance:

Iŋyefoŋi.
[iŋ.jeˈfo.ŋi]
iŋ-ye-foŋ-i
3p-CONT-be.at-3s
They were/are/will be still there.

Negated, it means ‘no longer’:

Iŋmayefoŋi.
[iŋ.ma.jeˈfo.ŋi]
iŋ-ma-ye-foŋ-i
3p-NEG-CONT-be.at-3s
They were/are/will be no longer there.



(Thank God I’m finally done with this post after like three months!!)
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Lērisama
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Re: bradrn’s scratchpad

Post by Lērisama »

I like it, but I'm too tired right now too comment further.
LZ – Lēri Ziwi
PS – Proto Sāzlakuic (ancestor of LZ)
PRk – Proto Rākēwuic
XI – Xú Iạlan
VN – verbal noun
SUP – supine
DIRECT – verbal directional
My language stuff
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