English questions

[zompist]

quad < quadrangle, i.e. a square open area. Common in university design!

[Raphael]

quad < quadrangle, i.e. a square open area. Common in university design!

Thank you!

[jal]

Late to the "Appalachian" discussion, but somehow I had a spelling pronunciation with a /k/. No idea why or where I picked that up...


JAL

[WeepingElf]

quad < quadrangle, i.e. a square open area. Common in university design!

Yep. And the resemblance to a cloister is not coincidental. The first universities developed from monastery schools.

[Glass Half Baked]

More specifically, the term "quad" usually implies a formal garden with no specific use near the center or front of a university campus.
Here is a very typical example. Its sole purpose is to be a big green area that allows views and transit between major buildings. The term "quad" would never be used for a school yard or athletic field. Because of its visibility and central location, a quad is perfect, however, for protests.

[Raphael]

More specifically, the term "quad" usually implies a formal garden with no specific use near the center or front of a university campus.
Here is a very typical example. Its sole purpose is to be a big green area that allows views and transit between major buildings. The term "quad" would never be used for a school yard or athletic field. Because of its visibility and central location, a quad is perfect, however, for protests.

Thank you!

[Travis B.]

One thing I have noticed is that at least in the English I am familiar, there is dissimilation between medial /n/ and final present participle endings' consonants even when there is intervocalic elision. For instance, I am used to in informal speech getting [ˈɡ̥ɜɾɘ̃(ː)(n)]~[ˈɡ̥ɜɘ̯̃n]~[ˈɡ̥ɜːn] but raining [ˈʁʷẽːɾ̃ɘ̃(ː)ŋ]~[ˈʁʷẽːɘ̯̃ŋ]~[ˈʁʷẽːːŋ], with ?[ˈʁʷẽːɾ̃ɘ̃(ː)(n)]~[ˈʁʷẽːɘ̯̃n]~[ˈʁʷẽːːn] being disfavored. Anyone else notice this kind of dissimilation in English?

[zompist]

One thing I have noticed is that at least in the English I am familiar, there is dissimilation between medial /n/ and final present participle endings' consonants even when there is intervocalic elision. For instance, I am used to in informal speech getting [ˈɡ̥ɜɾɘ̃(ː)(n)]~[ˈɡ̥ɜɘ̯̃n]~[ˈɡ̥ɜːn] but raining [ˈʁʷẽːɾ̃ɘ̃(ː)ŋ]~[ˈʁʷẽːɘ̯̃ŋ]~[ˈʁʷẽːːŋ], with ?[ˈʁʷẽːɾ̃ɘ̃(ː)(n)]~[ˈʁʷẽːɘ̯̃n]~[ˈʁʷẽːːn] being disfavored. Anyone else notice this kind of dissimilation in English?

For me "raining" is phonemically /renɪŋ/ but I'd say [ŋ] only in careful speech. Usually there's an [n] in there, but sometimes just nasalization.

[Travis B.]

I noticed when hearing Born in the USA by Bruce Springsteen on the radio that Bruce pronounces born with a vowel between [ɒː] and [ɔ̞ː], which seems awfully open for NORTH/FORCE (e.g. I am familiar with [ɔ(ː)ʁˤ] for NORTH/FORCE).

[jal]

I noticed when hearing Born in the USA by Bruce Springsteen on the radio that Bruce pronounces born with a vowel between [ɒː] and [ɔ̞ː], which seems awfully open for NORTH/FORCE (e.g. I am familiar with [ɔ(ː)ʁˤ] for NORTH/FORCE).

Given the way he sings it ("boooooooooorn") I think this is just a side-effect of his singing. You need to get some volume out.

Talking about singing, anybody ever noticed that George Michael, in Last Christmas, sings "gave it away" as if "gave" rhymes with "have" (i.e. almost a monopthong)?


JAL

[Travis B.]

Talking about singing, anybody ever noticed that George Michael, in Last Christmas, sings "gave it away" as if "gave" rhymes with "have" (i.e. almost a monopthong)?

Mind you though that FACE (and GOAT) are commonly monophthongs, particularly before consonants and especially in closed syllables, in various English varieties. Of course, George Michael was from London, and this is not a feature I associate with southern English English.

[Lērisama]

Talking about singing, anybody ever noticed that George Michael, in Last Christmas, sings "gave it away" as if "gave" rhymes with "have" (i.e. almost a monopthong)?

Mind you though that FACE (and GOAT) are commonly monophthongs, particularly before consonants and especially in closed syllables, in various English varieties. Of course, George Michael was from London, and this is not a feature I associate with southern English English.

It is very much not a feature of SSBE – FACE, GOAT & GOAL are probably the most resistant to monophthongisation. I haven't listened to the song in a while, but my memory it that it the vowel in ⟨gave⟩ was DRESS. The monophthongisation occurs occasionally colloquially in the past tense of some strong verbs, and ⟨gave⟩ is I think one of the more prone to it (after /ɛt/ for ⟨ate⟩).

[jal]

It is very much not a feature of SSBE – FACE, GOAT & GOAL are probably the most resistant to monophthongisation. I haven't listened to the song in a while, but my memory it that it the vowel in ⟨gave⟩ was DRESS. The monophthongisation occurs occasionally colloquially in the past tense of some strong verbs, and ⟨gave⟩ is I think one of the more prone to it (after /ɛt/ for ⟨ate⟩).

That would make sense. Interestingly, I asked the same question to John Wells twenty odd years ago, and he didn't mention this. For those wanting to listen, here's the first occurence in the song (links to YouTube).


JAL

[Travis B.]

It is very much not a feature of SSBE – FACE, GOAT & GOAL are probably the most resistant to monophthongisation. I haven't listened to the song in a while, but my memory it that it the vowel in ⟨gave⟩ was DRESS. The monophthongisation occurs occasionally colloquially in the past tense of some strong verbs, and ⟨gave⟩ is I think one of the more prone to it (after /ɛt/ for ⟨ate⟩).

That would make sense. Interestingly, I asked the same question to John Wells twenty odd years ago, and he didn't mention this. For those wanting to listen, here's the first occurence in the song (links to YouTube).

From listening to that song, the vowel there is a short monophthong between my native TRAP and FACE vowels, and has less in common with my native DRESS vowel, but that is because my native DRESS vowel has significant centralization and the vowel George Michael pronounces gave with is not centralized at all. This is in accordance to how I would expect DRESS to be pronounced in SSBE (the common transcription of this vowel as [e] is misleading as it is actually pretty similar to what is conventionally transcribed as [ɛ] in GA).

[Lērisama]

(the common transcription of this vowel as [e] is misleading as it is actually pretty similar to what is conventionally transcribed as [ɛ] in GA).

Does anyone still use that anymore? That's been out of date for at least 50 years now.

[Travis B.]

(the common transcription of this vowel as [e] is misleading as it is actually pretty similar to what is conventionally transcribed as [ɛ] in GA).

Does anyone still use that anymore? That's been out of date for at least 50 years now.

I think it was only ever merely a convention (and what makes it extra-confusing is the fact that it is transcribed the same way as GenAus [e], which to my knowledge really is [e]).

[Lērisama]

I think it was only ever merely a convention

It was on Daniel Jones' 1960 something list of RP vowels, I think, and they were intended to reflect phonetic reality. RP had a really high TRAP, so it wouldn't surprise me if it had a high dress as well.

[Travis B.]

I think it was only ever merely a convention

It was on Daniel Jones' 1960 something list of RP vowels, I think, and they were intended to reflect phonetic reality. RP had a really high TRAP, so it wouldn't surprise me if it had a high dress as well.

I watch quite a bit of British TV, and I don't recall ever confusing their DRESS with my FACE, and my FACE is a monophthong [e̞(ː)]. (Of course, I sometimes hear other people's DRESS'es as TRAP due to my native TRAP being roughly [ɛ(ː)] when not before /d/ or a nasal.)

[anteallach]

I think it was only ever merely a convention

It was on Daniel Jones' 1960 something list of RP vowels, I think, and they were intended to reflect phonetic reality. RP had a really high TRAP, so it wouldn't surprise me if it had a high dress as well.

I watch quite a bit of British TV, and I don't recall ever confusing their DRESS with my FACE, and my FACE is a monophthong [e̞(ː)]. (Of course, I sometimes hear other people's DRESS'es as TRAP due to my native TRAP being roughly [ɛ(ː)] when not before /d/ or a nasal.)

I suspect even the higher versions are laxer (or more centralised, or whatever "laxer" means exactly) than your FACE. The very high New Zealand version tends to sound like KIT to me; how do you hear that?

[Travis B.]

It was on Daniel Jones' 1960 something list of RP vowels, I think, and they were intended to reflect phonetic reality. RP had a really high TRAP, so it wouldn't surprise me if it had a high dress as well.

I watch quite a bit of British TV, and I don't recall ever confusing their DRESS with my FACE, and my FACE is a monophthong [e̞(ː)]. (Of course, I sometimes hear other people's DRESS'es as TRAP due to my native TRAP being roughly [ɛ(ː)] when not before /d/ or a nasal.)

I suspect even the higher versions are laxer (or more centralised, or whatever "laxer" means exactly) than your FACE. The very high New Zealand version tends to sound like KIT to me; how do you hear that?

I also watch some New Zealand-ish TV (yes, that's Brokenwood) and their DRESS sounds high but I don't perceive it as being like my FACE, probably because I perceive it as somewhat centralized whereas my own FACE is not centralized at all.