Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[hwhatting]

(note how Greek ⟨υ⟩ generally maps to a rounded front vowel in StG to this day, even though Kirche is an exception).

Refining that a bit - it's written "y" and pronounced like "ü", but only in learned and modern loans*), not in old nativized loans like Kirche.
*) E.g., even in a modern loan like Gyros, where the German pronuciation is based on the spelling of the transcription from Greek, not on the pronounciation in spoken Greek (which would give something like *Jiros in German).

[Travis B.]

(note how Greek ⟨υ⟩ generally maps to a rounded front vowel in StG to this day, even though Kirche is an exception).

Refining that a bit - it's written "y" and pronounced like "ü", but only in learned and modern loans*), not in old nativized loans like Kirche.
*) E.g., even in a modern loan like Gyros, where the German pronuciation is based on the spelling of the transcription from Greek, not on the pronounciation in spoken Greek (which would give something like *Jiros in German).

How do you pronounce Gyros? In the English here it is /ˈjəroʊz/ [ˈjʁ̩ˤːʁˤo̞ːs] outside careful speech, where it is /ˈjiroʊz/ [ˈjiːʁˤo̞ːs]~[ˈjɪːʁˤo̞ːs], even though we spell it gyros (or in the singular often turn it into gyro in everyday speech)?

[WeepingElf]

(note how Greek ⟨υ⟩ generally maps to a rounded front vowel in StG to this day, even though Kirche is an exception).

Refining that a bit - it's written "y" and pronounced like "ü", but only in learned and modern loans*), not in old nativized loans like Kirche.
*) E.g., even in a modern loan like Gyros, where the German pronuciation is based on the spelling of the transcription from Greek, not on the pronounciation in spoken Greek (which would give something like *Jiros in German).

How do you pronounce Gyros? In the English here it is /ˈjəroʊz/ [ˈjʁ̩ˤːʁˤo̞ːs] outside careful speech, where it is /ˈjiroʊz/ [ˈjiːʁˤo̞ːs]~[ˈjɪːʁˤo̞ːs], even though we spell it gyros (or in the singular often turn it into gyro in everyday speech)?

['gyːʀɔs], though some people say ['giːʀɔs]. This is of course a spelling pronunciation - is is more or less what a word spelled Gyros is expected to sound like in German, no matter what the Greeks actually call it.

[jal]

In this part of Germany, the word Kirche is pronounced something like [kɨɐçə].

Isn't that basically the standard pronunciation of Kirche?


JAL

[Man in Space]

For me (Inland North), gyro (the food, not the mechanism) is homophonous with hero.

[Travis B.]

For me (Inland North), gyro (the food, not the mechanism) is homophonous with hero.

How did that happen?!

Edit: is this due to conflation with the sandwich (which I personally am used to being called a sub) known as a hero in some parts of the US?

[Travis B.]

In this part of Germany, the word Kirche is pronounced something like [kɨɐçə].

Isn't that basically the standard pronunciation of Kirche?

The only thing that sticks out to me about that pronunciation vis-à-vis StG is the lack of aspiration on the [k].

[keenir]

For me (Inland North), gyro (the food, not the mechanism) is homophonous with hero.

How did that happen?!

Edit: is this due to conflation with the sandwich (which I personally am used to being called a sub) known as a hero in some parts of the US?

I've heard of a Hero Sandwitch...but I was never able to find out what one was (anyone i asked, didn't know)

[WeepingElf]

In this part of Germany, the word Kirche is pronounced something like [kɨɐçə].

Isn't that basically the standard pronunciation of Kirche?

Not really. The standard pronunciation is ['kiɐçə], but many speakers either front the [k] or retract the [i] slightly.

[Travis B.]

In this part of Germany, the word Kirche is pronounced something like [kɨɐçə].

Isn't that basically the standard pronunciation of Kirche?

Not really. The standard pronunciation is ['kiɐçə], but many speakers either front the [k] or retract the [i] slightly.

I thought /k/ was generally aspirated in StG.

[hwhatting]

Not really. The standard pronunciation is ['kiɐçə], but many speakers either front the [k] or retract the [i] slightly.

I thought /k/ was generally aspirated in StG.

It is, people just normally don't notice it because that's how /k/ is pronounced; that's why Germans also forget to notate it when using IPA. That said, there are German regiolects without aspiration; maybe Elf speaks one of those.

[Lērisama]

(note how Greek ⟨υ⟩ generally maps to a rounded front vowel in StG to this day, even though Kirche is an exception).

Refining that a bit - it's written "y" and pronounced like "ü", but only in learned and modern loans*), not in old nativized loans like Kirche.
*) E.g., even in a modern loan like Gyros, where the German pronuciation is based on the spelling of the transcription from Greek, not on the pronounciation in spoken Greek (which would give something like *Jiros in German).

How do you pronounce Gyros? In the English here it is /ˈjəroʊz/ [ˈjʁ̩ˤːʁˤo̞ːs] outside careful speech, where it is /ˈjiroʊz/ [ˈjiːʁˤo̞ːs]~[ˈjɪːʁˤo̞ːs], even though we spell it gyros (or in the singular often turn it into gyro in everyday speech)?

While over in Britain noöne knows how to pronounce it. Wiktionary lists 6 forms¹ from straight up spelling pronunciations /ɡajrəwz/² (Plural of gyro) to the quite-accurate-to-the-Greek /jɪjrəws/. I have /jɪjrɔs~ʒɪjrɔs³/ myself, neither of which is listed.

¹ Which all sound okay to me, although I can't vouch for having heard them all in the wild
² All IPA renotated to my SSBE
³ Either an attempt at [ʝ], or a hyperforeignism

[Travis B.]

Not really. The standard pronunciation is ['kiɐçə], but many speakers either front the [k] or retract the [i] slightly.

I thought /k/ was generally aspirated in StG.

It is, people just normally don't notice it because that's how /k/ is pronounced; that's why Germans also forget to notate it when using IPA. That said, there are German regiolects without aspiration; maybe Elf speaks one of those.

That's what I was wondering about -- does the regiolect where Elf is from lack aspiration, or did he just simply neglect to mark it?

[Travis B.]

Refining that a bit - it's written "y" and pronounced like "ü", but only in learned and modern loans*), not in old nativized loans like Kirche.
*) E.g., even in a modern loan like Gyros, where the German pronuciation is based on the spelling of the transcription from Greek, not on the pronounciation in spoken Greek (which would give something like *Jiros in German).

How do you pronounce Gyros? In the English here it is /ˈjəroʊz/ [ˈjʁ̩ˤːʁˤo̞ːs] outside careful speech, where it is /ˈjiroʊz/ [ˈjiːʁˤo̞ːs]~[ˈjɪːʁˤo̞ːs], even though we spell it gyros (or in the singular often turn it into gyro in everyday speech)?

While over in Britain noöne knows how to pronounce it. Wiktionary lists 6 forms¹ from straight up spelling pronunciations /ɡajrəwz/² (Plural of gyro) to the quite-accurate-to-the-Greek /jɪjrəws/. I have /jɪjrɔs~ʒɪjrɔs³/ myself, neither of which is listed.

¹ Which all sound okay to me, although I can't vouch for having heard them all in the wild
² All IPA renotated to my SSBE
³ Either an attempt at [ʝ], or a hyperforeignism

I'm surprised that I haven't heard someone pronounce it something like /ˈdʒəɪroʊz/ considering how apt people here are to spelling-pronounce loans according to English spelling...

[Man in Space]

I'm surprised that I haven't heard someone pronounce it something like /ˈdʒəɪroʊz/ considering how apt people here are to spelling-pronounce loans according to English spelling...

That is how I say gyro as in “gyroscope”.

[Travis B.]

I'm surprised that I haven't heard someone pronounce it something like /ˈdʒəɪroʊz/ considering how apt people here are to spelling-pronounce loans according to English spelling...

That is how I say gyro as in “gyroscope”.

Same here.

[WeepingElf]

I'm surprised that I haven't heard someone pronounce it something like /ˈdʒəɪroʊz/ considering how apt people here are to spelling-pronounce loans according to English spelling...

That is how I say gyro as in “gyroscope”.

Same here.

And of course, the words are related.

[Travis B.]

That is how I say gyro as in “gyroscope”.

Same here.

And of course, the words are related.

Yep, both come from Greek γύρος, 'circle', 'round', 'turn', etc.

[Flau]

I was looking at Zompist's page on Flaidish and came across this sentence:

ʔok garse ʔelzichpo, ʔok ʔozse festpo ʔaax
I if-ONG disobey-PART, I get-ONG paint-PART blue
If I disobeyed, I'd be painted blue

Memorable enough in itself, the sentence also made me wonder about the syntactic role of "blue", or generally of Y in phrases like "to make X Y". If I had to guess, I would say it's an adverbial, but it doesn't really modify the verb - it sounds more like an argument of it. Does anyone more knowledgeable on syntax have a definite answer?

[bradrn]

I was looking at Zompist's page on Flaidish and came across this sentence:

ʔok garse ʔelzichpo, ʔok ʔozse festpo ʔaax
I if-ONG disobey-PART, I get-ONG paint-PART blue
If I disobeyed, I'd be painted blue

Memorable enough in itself, the sentence also made me wonder about the syntactic role of "blue", or generally of Y in phrases like "to make X Y". If I had to guess, I would say it's an adverbial, but it doesn't really modify the verb - it sounds more like an argument of it. Does anyone more knowledgeable on syntax have a definite answer?

IIRC, in English grammar this is generally called ‘secondary predication’.

EDIT: actually, that’s something slightly different. Looking more closely at your examples, those are just ordinary ditransitive verbs taking two objects.