Various questions about Almea

[zompist]

This reminds me strongly of some of the claims that I have read about parish priests in Russia during the Tsarist period. (This refers to the parish ("white") clergy, who were married, as opposed to the celibate ("black") clergy, who were monks as well as priests; the higher church leadership - bishops, metropolitans, and the Patriarch, when that office existed - were drawn exclusively from the latter. As in Western Europe, there were also monks who were not priests.) While there were indeed seminaries for training clergy, village priests allegedly got fairly minimal training, and the role was partly hereditary: the sons of priests often themselves became priests, and the role of priest in a particular village might be passed directly from father to son, although I don't know enough to say how common the latter was. (I am largely quoting from memory here, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt.)

Very interesting, and that in turn reminds me of Catholicism in Latin America, which is ubiquitous and yet, so to speak, full of holes not entirely filled in by official belief and practice. Historically, native religions often survived in covert forms-- to say nothing of the Yoruba gods. There's a priest shortage, so remote villages may do entirely without "real" priests.

Similarly, Roman paganism survived in rural areas-- "pagan" originally meant rural-- and Zoroastrianism survived in the hinterlands of Iran for a millennium after the Muslim conquest. (Well, it survives today, in extremely small numbers; but as late as the 18th century the authorities found it strong enough to campaign against it.)

Anyway, this would certainly apply to the re-Caďinorian efforts of the 500-1000 period and then the 1600s/1700s. The efforts of the central state can't reach all the fringe spots all the time. Maybe they destroy the obvious images of the Six Gods, stamp out any cult that glorifies the ktuvoks, encourage pilgrims to come to Como, but they can't send a priest to every single village. On the other hand this sort of resistance may last 500 years but probably not 2000.

[sasasha]

Sorry to pose another question before I've responded to the last answer, but if I don't I'll forget. Do you have the years of Antaevon I's reign? Presuming this is the Antaevon whose daughter was Silvagina.

[zompist]

Sorry to pose another question before I've responded to the last answer, but if I don't I'll forget. Do you have the years of Antaevon I's reign? Presuming this is the Antaevon whose daughter was Silvagina.

1261–1289.

(Note, if you don't have the Historical Atlas, the bits not on my website are on the Patreon.)

[sasasha]

Sorry to pose another question before I've responded to the last answer, but if I don't I'll forget. Do you have the years of Antaevon I's reign? Presuming this is the Antaevon whose daughter was Silvagina.

1261–1289.

(Note, if you don't have the Historical Atlas, the bits not on my website are on the Patreon.)

Thanks! (Though is this information on the Patreon?)

I forgot that the print Historical Atlas has stuff not in the online version. Thanks for the reminder, because that has saved me a lot of time... I have been making my own ruler list by trawling your combined writings – except the one that has the ruler list in it

Time consuming, but it has been a good exercise!

[zompist]

(Note, if you don't have the Historical Atlas, the bits not on my website are on the Patreon.)

Thanks! (Though is this information on the Patreon?)

I forgot that the print Historical Atlas has stuff not in the online version.

It took me awhile to find, so here's the link.

[sasasha]

(Note, if you don't have the Historical Atlas, the bits not on my website are on the Patreon.)

Thanks! (Though is this information on the Patreon?)

I forgot that the print Historical Atlas has stuff not in the online version.

It took me awhile to find, so here's the link.

Thank you! Much appreciated.

[sasasha]

Another question: the symbol for zero was first invented in Čeiy in 2100. How did earlier Caďinor numerals work, and when did zero find its way to Eretald? (Apologies if this is covered somewhere but I can’t find it if so!) NB ‘place notation for numbers’ is attributed to Flora in 3050.

[zompist]

Another question: the symbol for zero was first invented in Čeiy in 2100. How did earlier Caďinor numerals work, and when did zero find its way to Eretald? (Apologies if this is covered somewhere but I can’t find it if so!) NB ‘place notation for numbers’ is attributed to Flora in 3050.

Caďinor had special symbols for multiples of 10 and 100. You can see a vestige of this in the Maraille font: there are still symbols for 11 and 12. (<D> was a way to write 10, so 11 is <D> with an added line for 1. 12 derives three circles, i.e. <4> x 3.)

Your next question is undoubtedly "how can I get my hands on this?" However, this was early work, in a file somewhere, and I'd want to go over it first anyway, and consider how to do arithmetic. So, patience please.

But to answer the question directly, the flaidish system included a zero; Eretaldans in the Dark Years did not know about the notation used in Čeiy.

[sasasha]

Another question: the symbol for zero was first invented in Čeiy in 2100. How did earlier Caďinor numerals work, and when did zero find its way to Eretald? (Apologies if this is covered somewhere but I can’t find it if so!) NB ‘place notation for numbers’ is attributed to Flora in 3050.

Caďinor had special symbols for multiples of 10 and 100. You can see a vestige of this in the Maraille font: there are still symbols for 11 and 12. (<D> was a way to write 10, so 11 is <D> with an added line for 1. 12 derives three circles, i.e. <4> x 3.)

Cool!

Your next question is undoubtedly "how can I get my hands on this?" However, this was early work, in a file somewhere, and I'd want to go over it first anyway, and consider how to do arithmetic. So, patience please.

No worries! It would make a lovely Christmas present, but that doesn’t have to be this Christmas… or this decade!

Presumably, the numerals themselves other than zero are old. You’ve indicated enough that I can imagine the system well enough for practical purposes, for now!

But to answer the question directly, the flaidish system included a zero; Eretaldans in the Dark Years did not know about the notation used in Čeiy.

OK, excellent, that makes sense.

[zompist]

BTW, I don't have pictures of Caďinor numerals, but as you may have guessed they derive from tally marks.

1 2 3 derive of course from | || |||.
4 was once ||||, simplified to a circle ○.
5 is a drawing of a hand.
6 is 5 plus a stroke. (Looks more like 4 plus a stroke, yes. It probably started out as ○|| but got reinterpreted/simplified.)
7 and 8 are very likely 9 plus 1 and 2 backward-facing strokes for "1/2 less than".
9— I'm not sure what I intended it as, but I'm going to suggest that it's the somewhat gruesome idea of "half a man", in that a full Almean human has 18 digits.
10, as noted, would have been written <D>.

(This is a pretty common way to form numerals. Chinese still writes 一二三, and Georges Ifrah believes that our numbers, invented in India, also derived this way.)

[sasasha]

[tried to delete post as reposted below but failed]

[sasasha]

BTW, I don't have pictures of Caďinor numerals, but as you may have guessed they derive from tally marks.

1 2 3 derive of course from | || |||.
4 was once ||||, simplified to a circle ○.
5 is a drawing of a hand.
6 is 5 plus a stroke. (Looks more like 4 plus a stroke, yes. It probably started out as ○|| but got reinterpreted/simplified.)
7 and 8 are very likely 9 plus 1 and 2 backward-facing strokes for "1/2 less than".
9— I'm not sure what I intended it as, but I'm going to suggest that it's the somewhat gruesome idea of "half a man", in that a full Almean human has 18 digits.
10, as noted, would have been written <D>.

(This is a pretty common way to form numerals. Chinese still writes 一二三, and Georges Ifrah believes that our numbers, invented in India, also derived this way.)

That’s great, and I love the somewhat gruesome detail. (I find 9 hard to satisfactorily draw. That idea might help.)

Also, I love Ifrah’s books, incidentally.

[sasasha]

While we’re on similar things, I just wanted to run a system of shorthand notation of attendant gods’ names by you.

It’s very simple: the boss god’s abbreviation (for want of a better word; these are the same as for the musical notes) comes first, complete with dot underneath, followed by a superscript for the first letter of the attendant’s name (in Caďinor in older texts, or Verdurian in later ones, unless they’re being deliberately archaic, which in music treatises, they probably are. Probably the choice, to Verdurian-speakers, is pretty arbitrary and context-specific).

Thus,

Chief god	Caďinor	Abbr.	Verdurian	Abbr.	role
Endauron	Vereion	ẸV	Vereon	ẸV	messenger
Endauron	Ecutiros	ẸE	Kutro	ẸK	cupbearer
Veharies	Ťeloreis	ṾŤ	Tolerei	ṾT	invention, perversity
Veharies	Pifael	ṾP	Fifel	ṾF	sex, romance
Caloteion	Menagria	C̣M	Neméria	C̣N	attendant
Caloteion	Olasiu	C̣O	Olašu	C̣O	beginnings
Boďnehais	Guebreica/Gutia	ḄG	Gövesa/Goča	ḄG	fear/shaking
Boďnehais	Kolleiva	ḄK	Koleva	ḄK	general
Oronteion	Nessoreis	ỌN	Nesrei	ỌN	birth
Oronteion	Radumeia	ỌR	Curaya	ỌC	reason
Agireis	Mitigama	ẠM	Mišicama	ẠM	the ocean
Agireis	Geleia	ẠG	Želea	ẠŽ	calm
Iscira	Imiridete	ỊI	Imiri	ỊI	messenger, planet
Iscira	Veriťis	ỊV	Vësi	ỊV	maid
Fidora	Beuneiro	F̣B	Belnear	F̣B	forests
Fidora	Meburis	F̣M	Meburi	F̣M	endings
Mieranac	Ďicos	ṂĎ	Ďic	ṂĎ	separates living from dead
Mieranac	Maranȟ	ṂM	Maranh	ṂM	general
Escis	Lelireis	ṢL	Lërei	ṢL	literature
Escis	Nisioparves	ṢN	Munifa	ṢM	splendour
Kravcaena	Bullarion	ḲB	Bulora	ḲB	bread
Kravcaena	Cilorion	ḲC	Syetnor	ḲS	wine
Necťeruon	Duretaia	ṆD	Deutaya	ṆD	city
Necťeruon	Uricellaudec	ṆU	Uřädec	ṆU	trade

These could be late imperial or medieval - the abbreviations of ‘the boss gods’ being set by the Aďivro, but these attendant abbreviations potentially belonging to a later era. (Or if you like, they could all be in the Aďivro in their Caďinor forms.)

And yes, my plan is that they will designate microtonal notes not in the indigenous Barakhinei, which has its own way of referring to them, but in the Verdurian-language treatises on Barakhinei music.

The only confusion is Gövesa or Goča. But only one note is needed, so it doesn’t really matter for the musical application.

EDIT: made complete table, and reposted.

Staricase thought: designations like Ḳ^S are pleasantly(?) anachronistic. Fractal complexity, and all that: the chief gods’ abbreviations would be so familiar that they would never vary, i.e. if you’re looking for a Řavcaëna temple one of the things you’re looking for is a big Ḳ ‒ but the attendants are slightly more likely to have a vernacular letter used to denote them. On the other hand a Verdurian might well read Ḳ^C as “Syetnor” and Ṣ^N as “Munifa”. The point is supposed to be, these are all straightforward for you to decode if you are in a field in which you have any cause to use them, or probably if you are a literate pagan in any field. On my Ulian map, I used the Vereon abbreviation to mark the Vereon temple/district. It saved space nicely. I would expect there to be various such applications... And derivatives. For instance, I marked the churches of Nëron Mihel and Nëron Pavel as ligatures of N̈M, N̈P.

All just conjectural, of course. Let me know what you think

[zompist]

It seems like a neat system for microtones. My one reaction is that some of these 'attendants' are very well known and probably have their own symbols-- especially Imiri and Vleteon which are planets, and Koleva and Maranh which are culture heroes. Potentially you use their regular symbols instead of the digraph. No weirder than the German note H.

[sasasha]

It seems like a neat system for microtones. My one reaction is that some of these 'attendants' are very well known and probably have their own symbols-- especially Imiri and Vleteon which are planets, and Koleva and Maranh which are culture heroes. Potentially you use their regular symbols instead of the digraph. No weirder than the German note H.

Ok, cool!

Do you have these symbols?

If not, I may have mocked up some ideas… again, originally digraphs, but from Cuêzi. There’s a D segment (dunalaldas) for the planets, and an N segment (nari) for the moons… I’m not that in love with them, they were just an experiment. See what you think.

[sasasha]

Another small suggestion:

658E4524-0DAD-4988-BCCC-C44CF05B894D.jpeg (10.33 KiB) Viewed 15073 times

Koleva / Maranh

Maybe a bit too obvious?

[zompist]

These are too typographic for me, I'm afraid. I wanted something more iconic, so I went back to the elements and came up with the pics below. I provide a couple of variants. Feel free to play with the calligraphy (if not, I will later).

Explanations:

Caiem - clay (by color and dimness). The symbol is based on cracks in mud or pottery.
Hírumor - wood (more or less by default). The symbol is a stylized tree.
Imiri - rock— really a gem, as it's associated with emerald. A shiny gemstone.
Vlerëi - water (it's the only blue planet), combined with "maiden". An <I> for 'maiden' plus a wavy line for water.
Išire - metal, for brightness, but the symbol derives from its Cuêzi name 'dawn lady'.
Vereon - air, for its speed; the symbol is a running horse.
Ënomai - fire, for obvious reasons. The symbol is kind of inevitably a circle.

Almea - Caď. 'earth and water'; the symbol is a square for earth and a wavy line for water.

These symbols can be used either for the planets or the elements. In addition you can use Vlerëi for feminine, Vereon for masculine.

[sasasha]

Great, they feel exactly right. I especially like having a symbol for Almea, and the correspondence with the elements.

I tried them with a wider nib. The only difficult one was Caiem - the curves were difficult to orientate without them blocking each other. So this Caiem has a straighter orientation, but the original shape is still integral to it. Just a variant for this kind of nib.

E49A97CF-DC1E-4FF1-B47F-0C54ED1EDEED.jpeg (73.37 KiB) Viewed 15045 times

[zompist]

Great, they feel exactly right. I especially like having a symbol for Almea, and the correspondence with the elements.

I tried them with a wider nib. The only difficult one was Caiem - the curves were difficult to orientate without them blocking each other. So this Caiem has a straighter orientation, but the original shape is still integral to it. Just a variant for this kind of nib.

E49A97CF-DC1E-4FF1-B47F-0C54ED1EDEED.jpeg

Looks great, except for Vereon, who looks like a bug.

[sasasha]

Great, they feel exactly right. I especially like having a symbol for Almea, and the correspondence with the elements.

I tried them with a wider nib. The only difficult one was Caiem - the curves were difficult to orientate without them blocking each other. So this Caiem has a straighter orientation, but the original shape is still integral to it. Just a variant for this kind of nib.

E49A97CF-DC1E-4FF1-B47F-0C54ED1EDEED.jpeg

Looks great, except for Vereon, who looks like a bug.

Lol. I’ll keep playing