English questions

[abahot]

Generally speaking, when people who use English address each other by their surnames, they also use some kind of formal address ("Mr", "Ms"), or honorific ("Doctor", "Captain", ""Reverend"). Using only the surname seems to be rare. But my impression is that there are two contexts where that form of address might be used: 1) in military forces, as a way superior officers or NCOs address people under their command, and 2) at the more exclusive British schools, as a way how different students, err, I mean, pupils address each other if they really can't stand each other.

Is that about right?

I have several friends who happen to share first names -- when they are both involved in conversation or both salient in context, we tend to use last names only to distinguish them, with or without first names.

[abahot]

How do people here pronounce "ask" and "asked"?

I have /{sk/ and /{st/, respectively. The /k/ is totally elided in the latter.

I usually have /sk/ and /skt/. I will note that in speakers I know who elide the /k/, the vowel in "asked" is often slightly lengthened, which distinguishes "assed" /æst/ from "asked" /æ:st/.

[Raphael]

at the more exclusive British schools, as a way how different students, err, I mean, pupils address each other if they really can't stand each other.

Seems to be/have been an American thing to? Iirc, in Back to the Future, Biff regularly calls George McFly just "McFly"?


JAL

Good catch! I had completely forgotten about that.

[jcb]

How do people here pronounce "ask" and "asked"?

I have /{sk/ and /{st/, respectively. The /k/ is totally elided in the latter.

I usually have /sk/ and /skt/. I will note that in speakers I know who elide the /k/, the vowel in "asked" is often slightly lengthened, which distinguishes "assed" /æst/ from "asked" /æ:st/.

I don't have such a length distinction, so "asked" and "assed" are identical for me.

[Travis B.]

How do people here pronounce "ask" and "asked"?

I have /{sk/ and /{st/, respectively. The /k/ is totally elided in the latter.

I usually have /sk/ and /skt/. I will note that in speakers I know who elide the /k/, the vowel in "asked" is often slightly lengthened, which distinguishes "assed" /æst/ from "asked" /æ:st/.

I don't have such a length distinction, so "asked" and "assed" are identical for me.

Same here.

[jcb]

As for kids in school, I remember when I was in school there was a kid who was always known by Neumann; I don't even remember his first name.

Maybe it was his first? Seems quite common for Americans to have a surname as first name (the CEO of the software company we use software from is called Woodson Martin).

at the more exclusive British schools, as a way how different students, err, I mean, pupils address each other if they really can't stand each other.

Seems to be/have been an American thing to? Iirc, in Back to the Future, Biff regularly calls George McFly just "McFly"?


JAL

(1) I had a teacher in middle and high school who'd call us students "mister/miss (surname)", but most teachers used our given names.
(2) I had a job at a university once where the student workers referred to each other by surnames.

[Travis B.]

(1) I had a teacher in middle and high school who'd call us students "mister/miss (surname)", but most teachers used our given names.

The only context in my whole life where people would regularly use "mister/missus/miss (surname)" was in grade school, where teachers were always called "mister/missus/miss (surname)" exclusively, to the point that in most cases I never knew my teachers' first names.

[jcb]

As for kids in school, I remember when I was in school there was a kid who was always known by Neumann; I don't even remember his first name.

Maybe it was his first? Seems quite common for Americans to have a surname as first name (the CEO of the software company we use software from is called Woodson Martin).

It is not common to use German last names as first names here in the US, though, as last names-as-first names are typically English, Scottish, or Irish and not German here, whereas Neumann really is not unusual as a last name here (this is Wisconsin after all).

(One thing to remember is that there is still a subliminal divide between English, Scottish, and Irish people on one hand and 'ethnic' Whites such as Germans, Poles, Italians, and Norwegians here in the US that may not be visible from without the US. This is reflected by things like how 'ethnic' White names are normally not adopted as pen names by authors here in the US, and often people with 'ethnic' White names will actually adopt an English, Scottish, or Irish pen name when they write.)

Also note that a name like "Neumann" may be anglicized in America depending on the person and their history. If the person or their family is a recently immigrant (within the past 50 years), I'd assume they still pronounce it as /nojm(a|A)n/, but if their family has been in America since the American Civil War (or earlier), I'd assume they pronounce it as /numIn/.

However, anglicization does not always progress straight forwardly, and can take a long time. For example, my family has been in America since around the American Civil War times, and those with my surname anglicized it by dropping the umlaut on the "ü" since the beginning (gravestones confirm this), but I personally went I step further and anglicized the pronunciation of the remaining "u" from /U/ (originally "ü" and /Y/) to /V/, because it's how strangers pronounced my surname 75% of the time anyways, and I was tired of fighting it. (The other 25% was with /u/ or /ju/.)

[bradrn]

However, anglicization does not always progress straight forwardly, and can take a long time. For example, my family has been in America since around the American Civil War times, and those with my surname anglicized it by dropping the umlaut on the "ü" since the beginning (gravestones confirm this), but I personally went I step further and anglicized the pronunciation of the remaining "u" from /U/ (originally "ü" and /Y/) to /V/, because it's how strangers pronounced my surname 75% of the time anyways, and I was tired of fighting it. (The other 25% was with /u/ or /ju/.)

I have a similar surname, and people continually mispronounce it. But I haven’t given in yet…

[jcb]

(1) I had a teacher in middle and high school who'd call us students "mister/miss (surname)", but most teachers used our given names.

The only context in my whole life where people would regularly use "mister/missus/miss (surname)" was in grade school, where teachers were always called "mister/missus/miss (surname)" exclusively, to the point that in most cases I never knew my teachers' first names.

All my teachers in grade/middle/high school were "mister/missus (surname)", and to this day I still don't know most of their first names.

[Travis B.]

Maybe it was his first? Seems quite common for Americans to have a surname as first name (the CEO of the software company we use software from is called Woodson Martin).

It is not common to use German last names as first names here in the US, though, as last names-as-first names are typically English, Scottish, or Irish and not German here, whereas Neumann really is not unusual as a last name here (this is Wisconsin after all).

(One thing to remember is that there is still a subliminal divide between English, Scottish, and Irish people on one hand and 'ethnic' Whites such as Germans, Poles, Italians, and Norwegians here in the US that may not be visible from without the US. This is reflected by things like how 'ethnic' White names are normally not adopted as pen names by authors here in the US, and often people with 'ethnic' White names will actually adopt an English, Scottish, or Irish pen name when they write.)

Also note that a name like "Neumann" may be anglicized in America depending on the person and their history. If the person or their family is a recently immigrant (within the past 50 years), I'd assume they still pronounce it as /nojm(a|A)n/, but if their family has been in America since the American Civil War (or earlier), I'd assume they pronounce it as /numIn/.

However, anglicization does not always progress straight forwardly, and can take a long time. For example, my family has been in America since around the American Civil War times, and those with my surname anglicized it by dropping the umlaut on the "ü" since the beginning (gravestones confirm this), but I personally went I step further and anglicized the pronunciation of the remaining "u" from /U/ (originally "ü" and /Y/) to /V/, because it's how strangers pronounced my surname 75% of the time anyways, and I was tired of fighting it. (The other 25% was with /u/ or /ju/.)

My family always pronounces our last name in an anglicized fashion, and I have never heard it pronounced otherwise except when people inexplicably butcher it by inserting an /r/ (not reflected in the spelling either!) into it.

As for Neumann, the kids always pronounced it /ˈnumən/ [ˈnʷyːmɘ(ː)n] as if it were spelled "Newman".

[jal]

It is not common to use German last names as first names here in the US, though, as last names-as-first names are typically English, Scottish, or Irish and not German here, whereas Neumann really is not unusual as a last name here (this is Wisconsin after all).

Well, common or not, there are people with "Neuman" or "Newman" as first name, apparently.

All my teachers in grade/middle/high school were "mister/missus (surname)", and to this day I still don't know most of their first names.

Same here. Primary school teachers were "juf" or "meester" (job title "teacher f/m", but only for primary school, and also used vocatively) + first name, in secondary school it's "meneer" or "mevrouw" (mister/missus) + last name, and we hardly ever knew first names. That's still the practice at most secondary schools, as far as I know (at least at the school my kids attend(ed)).


JAL

[Starbeam]

Generally speaking, when people who use English address each other by their surnames, they also use some kind of formal address ("Mr", "Ms"), or honorific ("Doctor", "Captain", ""Reverend"). Using only the surname seems to be rare. But my impression is that there are two contexts where that form of address might be used: 1) in military forces, as a way superior officers or NCOs address people under their command, and 2) at the more exclusive British schools, as a way how different students, err, I mean, pupils address each other if they really can't stand each other.

Is that about right?

Note that in the military, one would normally use someone's rank with their last name rather than their last name in isolation.

As for kids in school, I remember when I was in school there was a kid who was always known by Neumann; I don't even remember his first name.

Hello...Neumann

[Travis B.]

It is not common to use German last names as first names here in the US, though, as last names-as-first names are typically English, Scottish, or Irish and not German here, whereas Neumann really is not unusual as a last name here (this is Wisconsin after all).

Well, common or not, there are people with "Neuman" or "Newman" as first name, apparently.

Mind you, Newman is in the very least an anglicized version of Neumann or its Yiddish counterpart; e.g. Paul Newman was of Ashkenazi descent through his father. It is not surprising that people would be more likely to have Newman as a first name than Neumann.

[Travis B.]

Does anyone else when you cannot see and do not know the speaker perceive pure conservative General American as "Black" when juxtaposed against non-GA varieties, including high registers thereof, and GA with subtle non-AAVE dialectal substratum/adstratum influence?

I ask because when listening to advertisements on the local radio in Milwaukee, I have a hard time not automatically racially sorting commercials in my head based upon whether they are in a high, very standardized register of Inland North English or pure GA, and I automatically tend to perceive ones in pure GA as "Black" ─ and indeed, they very often end up talking about 'urban' things or are explicitly about Black matters. And mind you, I am not referring to Standard English with AAVE substratum influence, but rather very pure GA.

Of course, this has resulted in things where I have assumed that someone on the radio was Black, when it turned out that they were not Black at all but rather just spoke particularly conservative GA.

This seems consistent with a hypothesis I have seen as to the genesis of Inland North dialects, where they were in a way a subconscious or less-than-subconscious attempt by White people to differentiate themselves from Black people who had adopted GA, while conversely Black people in the Inland North have largely resisted adopting Inland North dialects, thus reinforcing this.

[jcb]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)

In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)

My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

[jal]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)
In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)
My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

Perhaps also interesting to note where people are coming from?

For what's it worth, since I'm an ESL speaker, I have /ʊ/, /v/, /θ/.


JAL

[Travis B.]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)

In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)

My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

I have /ʊ/, /v/, /ð/ as well. Mind you I normally pronounce the /v/ and /ð/ here as [f] and [θ] outside of very careful speech, but the preceding vowel is long (whereas it is short in the singular forms of these words).

Edit: I may also have /u/ in roof as well; I am in free variation between the two for this word.

[Lērisama]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)

In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)

My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

/ɵw/ (GOOSE), /v/ and register dependant /θ/~/ð/ in my SSBE.

[anteallach]

For the people here, in the words "hoof, roof", what vowel do you have? How do you form the plural? (with /f/ or /v/?)

In the words "bath, path", how do you form the plural? (with /T/ or /D/?)

My answers: /U/, /v/, /D/

/uː/ (GOOSE), /v/, /θ/

As I think I've said before, for me voicing of /f/ and /θ/ in plurals seems to be completely blocked if they are immediately after a short/lax vowel. As I don't have the TRAP/BATH split, this rules out voicing in baths and paths, and it would also block voicing in the plurals of hoof and roof if I had FOOT in those, but I don't. My impression is that this is a common constraint in BrE, meaning that the voiced fricatives in baths and paths are mostly used by people with the TRAP-BATH split. I actually vaguely know someone who doesn't usually have the TRAP-BATH split and does have /ðz/ in paths, but in that word (but not in the singular path) he has /ɑː/, as if he did have the split.