Zompist Bboard Again

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:53 am Kalamata as in the olive.

Something like [ˌkʰæ.lə.ˈmæ.tʰə] I guess.

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:53 amKalamata as in the olive.

[kɐlɐˈmata] or the like, but that's in Dutch :). Never needed it in English.


JAL

Jonlang wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:09 am Something like [ˌkʰæ.lə.ˈmæ.tʰə] I guess.

That's how I've always thought of it, except with [ma] instead of [mæ].

jal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:17 am [kɐlɐˈmata] or the like, but that's in Dutch . Never needed it in English.

You would if you had Kalamata olive bread, which I do.

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:53 am Kalamata as in the olive.

/ˌkɑləˈmɑtə/

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:39 pm

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:53 am Kalamata as in the olive.

/ˌkɑləˈmɑtə/

My pronunciation is phonemically identical.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:39 pm

WarpedWartWars wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:53 am Kalamata as in the olive.

/ˌkɑləˈmɑtə/

I was thinking that too.

I've never heard the word said before, but from the orthography, /kælə'mɑːtə/ ([kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.də~kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.ɾə]) would probably be my instinct.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:05 am I've never heard the word said before, but from the orthography, /kælə'mɑːtə/ ([kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.də~kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.ɾə]) would probably be my instinct.

The thing is that to me stressed ⟨a⟩ in non-Germanic loans and names is normally mapped to /ɑ/ (and even in Germanic loans long ⟨a⟩ often maps to that too). Note that this seems to be an American thing, as commonly non-Americans will map the same to /æ/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:04 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:05 am I've never heard the word said before, but from the orthography, /kælə'mɑːtə/ ([kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.də~kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.ɾə]) would probably be my instinct.

The thing is that to me stressed ⟨a⟩ in non-Germanic loans and names is normally mapped to /ɑ/ (and even in Germanic loans long ⟨a⟩ often maps to that too). Note that this seems to be an American thing, as commonly non-Americans will map the same to /æ/.

Note that I map one to [æ], and one to [ɑː]; I think it might be analogous with calamari.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:06 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:04 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:05 am I've never heard the word said before, but from the orthography, /kælə'mɑːtə/ ([kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.də~kʰæː.ɫə'mɑː.ɾə]) would probably be my instinct.

The thing is that to me stressed ⟨a⟩ in non-Germanic loans and names is normally mapped to /ɑ/ (and even in Germanic loans long ⟨a⟩ often maps to that too). Note that this seems to be an American thing, as commonly non-Americans will map the same to /æ/.

Note that I map one to [æ], and one to [ɑː]; I think it might be analogous with calamari.

I likewise have /ˌkɑləˈmɑri/ ([ˌkʰaːɤ̯ə̃ːˈmɑːʁˤi(ː)]) for calamari.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:06 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:06 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:04 pm

The thing is that to me stressed ⟨a⟩ in non-Germanic loans and names is normally mapped to /ɑ/ (and even in Germanic loans long ⟨a⟩ often maps to that too). Note that this seems to be an American thing, as commonly non-Americans will map the same to /æ/.

Note that I map one to [æ], and one to [ɑː]; I think it might be analogous with calamari.

I likewise have /ˌkɑləˈmɑri/ ([ˌkʰaːɤ̯ə̃ːˈmɑːʁˤi(ː)]) for calamari.

Ah, I have /kælə'mɑːri/ [ˌkʰæ.ɫə'mɑː.ɹij~ˌkʰæ.lə'mɑː.ɹɪ]; the maybe "interesting" feature is that I tend to reduce /iː/ to /ɪ/ terminally in a few contexts (usually at the end of longer words, when followed by another word beginning with a consonant utterance-medially), which is possibly regional influence; tomorrow is often /təmɑːrə/, the days of the week all end in roughly /di~dɪ/ rather than having a more fully realised [ou] or [ei], as might otherwise be expected (my speech is pretty close to General American, or so I tend to think). I don't go far enough to reduce /iː/ to [ə] — my very is not *['vɛ(ː).ɹə], though I have encountered that pronunciation before.

I have TRAP (phonetically [a]) in both the first and third syllables of kalamata and in the first syllable of calamari but PALM/START in the third syllable of calamari.

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:08 am I have TRAP (phonetically [a]) in both the first and third syllables of kalamata and in the first syllable of calamari but PALM/START in the third syllable of calamari.

If your trap vowel is [a], what is your palm vowel? Still [ɑː]?

"twenty"

Many sources state this word has DRESS or STRUT. What do you have? Are there any social connotations to using either vowel?

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:41 am "son"

Just noticed Wiktionary claims this word can be pronounced with the LOT vowel, instead of the usual STRUT. Who pronounces it with LOT?

By the way, I eventually found, in J. C. Wells's Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (2000), that "son" is the pronunciation of the Spanish borrowing for the musical genre... Clarified it on Wiktionary.

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:46 am "twenty"

Many sources state this word has DRESS or STRUT. What do you have? Are there any social connotations to using either vowel?

I have STRUT. Pronouncing it as DRESS sounds like a horrible spelling pronunciation/hypercorrection to me, TBH.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:12 pm

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:46 am "twenty"

Many sources state this word has DRESS or STRUT. What do you have? Are there any social connotations to using either vowel?

I have STRUT. Pronouncing it as DRESS sounds like a horrible spelling pronunciation/hypercorrection to me, TBH.

I have the two in free variation, but might have some slight preference for the strut vowel.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:12 pm

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:46 am "twenty"
Many sources state this word has DRESS or STRUT. What do you have? Are there any social connotations to using either vowel?

I have STRUT. Pronouncing it as DRESS sounds like a horrible spelling pronunciation/hypercorrection to me, TBH.

Same. For me it rhymes with "runny" and even pronouncing the second t sounds like a hypercorrection to me.

FWIW, I also frequently have the STRUT vowel in went, making it an occasional homophone for want.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:44 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:12 pm

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:46 am "twenty"
Many sources state this word has DRESS or STRUT. What do you have? Are there any social connotations to using either vowel?

I have STRUT. Pronouncing it as DRESS sounds like a horrible spelling pronunciation/hypercorrection to me, TBH.

Same. For me it rhymes with "runny" and even pronouncing the second t sounds like a hypercorrection to me.

I normally do not realize twenty with even [ɾ̃], as my usual pronunciation is [tʰwʌ̃ːj] (yes, that's a monosyllable), but both the /n/ and the /t/ are still there underlyingly as the vowel is nasalized and only long rather than overlong. When pronouncing twenty more carefully it comes out as [ˈtʰwʌ̃ɾ̃i(ː)], which still reflects an underlying /t/ because the first vowel is short rather than long. Pronouncing twenty with a real live [nt] comes off as a serious hypercorrection to me.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:44 pm FWIW, I also frequently have the STRUT vowel in went, making it an occasional homophone for want.

So you sometimes pronounce want with STRUT?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:54 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:44 pm FWIW, I also frequently have the STRUT vowel in went, making it an occasional homophone for want.

So you sometimes pronounce want with STRUT?

Is this a trick question? I always pronounce it that way. Using a rounded vowel sounds positively Bri'ish to me.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:56 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:54 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:44 pm FWIW, I also frequently have the STRUT vowel in went, making it an occasional homophone for want.

So you sometimes pronounce want with STRUT?

Is this a trick question? I always pronounce it that way. Using a rounded vowel sounds positively Bri'ish to me.

In the dialect here in Milwaukee, want is pronounced with a rounded THOUGHT vowel, specifically [ɒ̃], unless one is actually from further south, e.g. Kenosha (my mother, who is from Kenosha originally, very frequently unrounds her THOUGHT as [ɑ], in this case as [ɑ̃], but is not cot-caught merged per se because her LOT is [a] except when adjacent to /r w h kw gw/).