Zompist Bboard Again

If anything being "a person of Jewish ancestry" implies to me that one does not actively identify as a Jew, and that one merely has ancestors who happened to be Jews.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:19 am Here in the US, being born of Danish parents in the US automatically moves one from being Danish to being a a person of Danish ancestry, whereas being a first generation American does not make one any less a Jew, as Jewishness is not tied to any given nation.

Better change 'nation' to 'nation state'. Danish and Indian nationality are easily lost by immigrant's families; Jamaican is readily retained, and Irish can be maintained indefinitely. I think this has little connection with linguistic behaviour.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:08 amAlso, Judaism is a culture/religion (whichever term you prefer)

The complicated thing is that it's both. My stepmother is culturally Jewish--she identifies as Jewish, she uses some Yiddish words, she makes and consumes traditional Ashkenazi Jewish foods (like matzoh ball soup and ruggeleh), she observes some Jewish holidays (like Hannukah), etc. But she's not religiously Jewish--she doesn't attend a synagogue, fast on Yom Kippur, or pray. Nevertheless, by identifying as "Jewish", she's part of a larger Jewish community in the USA and elsewhere in the way that someone who identifies as "Danish" isn't.

To give one example: Modern Orthodox Judaism incorporates the concept of the tinok shenishba, which has been extended from its original meaning ("captured infant") to refer to nonobservant Jews of all types. Judaism prohibits prosyletising to non-Jews, but bringing Jews back to the faith is considered a mitzvah ("good deed"). In the city where I work, I occasionally see a "mitzvah tank" and I've been approached before and asked by the volunteers if I'm Jewish. When I say "no", they immediately wish me a good day and turn their attention elsewhere; if I said, "yes", I'd get a barrage of questions about what my day-to-day practice is. Christian prosyletisers do ask if I'm Christian or not, but only in order to tailor their approach; they would continue trying to recruit me to their particular brand of Christianity regardless.

Richard W wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:19 am Here in the US, being born of Danish parents in the US automatically moves one from being Danish to being a a person of Danish ancestry, whereas being a first generation American does not make one any less a Jew, as Jewishness is not tied to any given nation.

Better change 'nation' to 'nation state'. Danish and Indian nationality are easily lost by immigrant's families; Jamaican is readily retained, and Irish can be maintained indefinitely. I think this has little connection with linguistic behaviour.

It is not about citizenship. Let's consider the case of someone born in the US of Irish ancestry with Irish citizenship acquired through jus sanguinis who has no direct connection with Ireland. I would consider them to be an American of Irish ancestry and not Irish per se despite having Irish citizenship.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:26 pm mitzvah tank

That's more aggressive than the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses I've encountered, who limit themselves to walking around in pairs trying to proselytize people (I suspect with little success)...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:55 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:26 pm mitzvah tank

That's more aggressive than the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses I've encountered, who limit themselves to walking around in pairs trying to proselytize people (I suspect with little success)...

The Mormons and JWs go to your house however, and continue trying to ask you questions or talk to you after saying you aren't interested. Or at least some do in my experience. I've also had JWs show up in groups of five or more, so certainly not limiting themselves.

These seem to go to neighborhoods and remain in public areas, and if you aren't already culturally Jewish, they leave you alone. I'd much prefer the latter to the former, especially on a weekend morning before I've had my caffeine.

I'm told Chabad actually provides very useful services to observant Jews. I think it's little things like having a place to pray or not being alone on Shabbat when you're alone.

JWs are at best a major annoyance. (No idea about the Mormons: I see them around once in a while but for some reason they never seem to be preaching to anyone here.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:09 am I'm told Chabad actually provides very useful services to observant Jews. I think it's little things like having a place to pray or not being alone on Shabbat when you're alone.

Though I’m not particularly observant, this has been my experience of going to a Chabad shul: aside from the synagogue itself, they do try to build a community through things like bringing around a lulav and etrog for Sukkot, lighting a chanukkiah for Chanukkah, and so on. (I suppose you could argue about how successful the community-building has been, but they certainly do go out of their way to help people.)

I've just learnt about the existence of a few things.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:00 am I've just learnt about the existence of a few things.

(In fairness, I suppose I was needlessly obfuscatory by talking about ‘chanukkiah’s and ‘etrog’s; ‘menorah’ and ‘citron’ might have been more widely known words, though strictly speaking both terms aren’t quite correct.)

I also didn't know what shakkot was. I have no observant Jewish acquaintance, and am culturally Christian and in actual belief atheist. Google can be a wonderful thing sometimes.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:20 am I also didn't know what shakkot was.

I’m not surprised… I don’t know what shakkot is either! (Though it certainly sounds Jewish enough.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:50 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:20 am I also didn't know what shakkot was.

I’m not surprised… I don’t know what shakkot is either! (Though it certainly sounds Jewish enough.)

It's apparently some sort of harvest festival.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:16 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:50 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:20 am I also didn't know what shakkot was.

I’m not surprised… I don’t know what shakkot is either! (Though it certainly sounds Jewish enough.)

It's apparently some sort of harvest festival.

Are you perhaps referring to Shavuot, then? ‘Shakkot’ sounds like some kind of weird Shavuot/Sukkot hybrid holiday to me.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:46 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:16 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:50 pm

I’m not surprised… I don’t know what shakkot is either! (Though it certainly sounds Jewish enough.)

It's apparently some sort of harvest festival.

Are you perhaps referring to Shavuot, then? ‘Shakkot’ sounds like some kind of weird Shavuot/Sukkot hybrid holiday to me.

It was "Sukkot", apparently; I think I somehow mentally spliced it together with Shevat (you can thank Xenogears for that one, probably) and shabbat.

Raholeun wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:42 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:18 pm Jew > Jewish > Jewish person > person of Jewish heritage/persuasion/background/etc.

Would you say the following case is completely analogous to your case?

"Is he a Dane?"
"Is he Danish?"
"Is he a Danish person?"
"Is he a person of Danish heritage?" "Does he have Danish ancestry?" etc

Since when is being Dänish a sensitive matter?

FlamyobatRudki wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:13 pm

Raholeun wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:42 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:18 pm Jew > Jewish > Jewish person > person of Jewish heritage/persuasion/background/etc.

Would you say the following case is completely analogous to your case?

"Is he a Dane?"
"Is he Danish?"
"Is he a Danish person?"
"Is he a person of Danish heritage?" "Does he have Danish ancestry?" etc

Since when is being Dänish a sensitive matter?

The key thing is that in the US, if one has European ancestry one is seen as being descended from it, particularly since most European Americans today are highly assimilated. Hence there is a difference between being Danish and being of Danish descent/ancestry/heritage/etc. - being Danish implies that one was born in Denmark, whereas being of Danish descent/ancestry/heritage/etc. implies that one was not born in Denmark and that one is likely to be very assimilated.

The same is not true of being Jewish, as mentioned - being born in America makes one no less a Jew. However, similarly, being spoken of being of Jewish descent/ancestry/heritage/etc. implies that is not thought of as being a Jew but rather as merely having Jewish ancestors at some point down the line.