Zompist Bboard Again

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:53 am Besides saying that i literally didn't mean what you insinuated.

I insinuated nothing. I formed my statement around your reply.

Did Americans eat "Authentic" Italian food before 21st century foodie culture?

Yes. partly because Americans could and often did take part in the Grand Tour of the European Continent.....and even those who didn't do that, would leave the Americas and go overseas to Italy, Spain, and other places - sometimes even going overseas to other parts of the Americas.

and even in the US and Canada and Mexico (etc), there were genuine authentic 1st-generation Italians who were cooking the food they knew and had grown up with.

I'm thin as a stick but statistics show anglo countries are amongst the fattest in the world.

I am shocked, utterly shocked, I say, to hear you assert that wealthy affluent nations have people who can literally afford to overeat.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:50 am Maybe salmon or deer with american berries is nicer than most british cuisine. I suspect it is and which is why i think nordic cuisine would be better than it and german cuisine.

so even when you use American foods, you feel the need to put it in non-native cuisines? a minute ago, you were railing against polluting the noble exotic cuisines of anywhere thats not an Anglophone nation, with ingredients from any nation not their own.

Premodern agriculturalists have access to less variety of foods than modern ones do and premodern hunter gatherers don't have access to the same consistency of ingredients.

sure they did - they may not have always woken up every morning knowing if they would be eating boar or deer or ostrich egg that evening, but the quality and taste of the boar/egg/deer was the same as the other times they ate boar/egg/deer.

Banana is nice i do admit but one of the worse things i ever remember having was a "pancake" in oceania which was to oil and only vaguely flavourful.

this is the first time in my long life that I've ever heard anyone say "i ate something in Oceania"....given that Oceania is a realm in biogeography, your reply is confusing.

I do not like sweetcorn and maize fills the same role as any other grain

wait, you were railing and screaming that every cuisine is unique and should never be adulterated with other ingredients...and now you're saying its interchangeable.

is this because its grown by people you regard as primitives?

tho i prefer rice. I have never tried climbing beans.

you've never had any beans or peas? wow.

I did answer your question partially and relevantly.

no, the first time i asked, you rambled a bunch of things, and then mentioned pumpkins.

Which is not relevant in steaming

the way you ordered your post, it appears that you're saying that answering partially & relevantly is not relevant to steaming; I suspect you didn't mean that, but I have no clue what you're trying to form a rebuttal to.

and no i have never eaten bbq.

given your insistence that pizza is always cooked with wood-smoke ovens, it strikes me as strange that
1. you seem unfamiliar with the idea that anything can pick up a taste from the smoke its cooked in.
2. anything other than pizza can be cooked in a wood-smoke oven.

I never said Anglos couldn't cook just that the cuisine they have been given is bad.

"been given"? given by who?

Both of you need to step back on this topic for awhile or longer. You're just snipping at each other and this style of debate goes nowhere.

Not going to comment

Limited to wealthy elites, i doubt hipsters are the equivalent of wealthy englishmen in the 18th century

Polynesians and Arabs aren't wealthier than other europeans and they are even fatter

I have never heard of native american cuisine other than Akutaq and some dried meat and berry mixture whose name i can't remember

Wild animals vary in fitness tho and wild fruits have much lower sugar content than cultivated ones (through partial cultivation is seen amongst real world hunter gatherers)

I meant Melanesia but i'm sure you can find it in Polynesia since they share the same base crops.

I didn't say that, but i did imply Italian food is more Italian if its made by a distiguishable product of italy ie Prosciutto or Pancetta. If you made a pizza with Brie it could be considered fusion French cuisine but i think that pizza proper would originate in America so you could consider it both. If you add reindeer it's Finnish Pizza https://www.mashed.com/738097/this-finn ... a-topping/

I will not respond to this topic anymore because Zompist said i shouldn't reply though i could go like this for hours.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:02 pm Gyros is the cheapest, commonest kind of fast food in France. De call it grec (in ans around Paris) or kebab (in most other places.) Nobody knows what the meat is, though. Nobody really wants to know, either

A while ago, I read somewhere that a study had supposedly found that, IIRC, about one tenth of all doner kebabs in Germany, pretty much all of which are sold by Muslims, contain pork.

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z46oREjJLc

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:32 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:02 pm Gyros is the cheapest, commonest kind of fast food in France. De call it grec (in ans around Paris) or kebab (in most other places.) Nobody knows what the meat is, though. Nobody really wants to know, either

A while ago, I read somewhere that a study had supposedly found that, IIRC, about one tenth of all doner kebabs in Germany, pretty much all of which are sold by Muslims, contain pork.

It should be remembered that the doner kebab originated in Turkey, and only became known as "Greek" food relatively recently, recently enough that the Colonels' Regime there specifically pushed for renaming it "gyros" to Grecize it.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:24 amI have never heard of native american cuisine other than Akutaq and some dried meat and berry mixture whose name i can't remember.

Here's a nice roundup of recipes: https://www.powwows.com/25-favorite-nat ... n-recipes/. Some of them (e.g. frybread) obviously postdate contact with Europeans and others have been modified to use ingredients introduced by Europeans (e.g. shallots) in place of foraged ones, but I'm assuming you're not holding Native American cuisine to higher standards of "purity" than you would, say, Italian or Korean.

There are numerous ongoing attempts to adapt indigenous ingredients and recipes to modern cooking. One of the more interesting to me is an initiative among the Tohono O’odham of Arizona to revive older foodways in order to combat obesity. (They have one of the highest rates of obesity in the world, primarily due to the catastrophic impact of being forced to abandon their traditional lifeways and subsist on government rations.)
See: https://statemuseum.arizona.edu/sites/d ... odways.pdf.

For something more higher end, there's the café at the Museum of the American Indian in DC: http://www.mitsitamcafe.com/. It was a Diné chef, Freddie Bitsoie, who was initially responsible for launching it. Another Diné chef working in the area of haute cuisine with indigenous ingredients is Brian Yazzie https://www.yazziethechef.com/press. Both incorporate an intertribal approach which incorporates ingredients and techniques from throughout the Americas.

That's just a sampling. You can find a lot more information and links here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenou ... e_Americas.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:21 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:24 amI have never heard of native american cuisine other than Akutaq and some dried meat and berry mixture whose name i can't remember.

Here's a nice roundup of recipes: https://www.powwows.com/25-favorite-nat ... n-recipes/. Some of them (e.g. frybread) obviously postdate contact with Europeans and others have been modified to use ingredients introduced by Europeans (e.g. shallots) in place of foraged ones, but I'm assuming you're not holding Native American cuisine to higher standards of "purity" than you would, say, Italian or Korean.

There are numerous ongoing attempts to adapt indigenous ingredients and recipes to modern cooking. One of the more interesting to me is an initiative among the Tohono O’odham of Arizona to revive older foodways in order to combat obesity. (They have one of the highest rates of obesity in the world, primarily due to the catastrophic impact of being forced to abandon their traditional lifeways and subsist on government rations.)
See: https://statemuseum.arizona.edu/sites/d ... odways.pdf.

For something more higher end, there's the café at the Museum of the American Indian in DC: http://www.mitsitamcafe.com/. It was a Diné chef, Freddie Bitsoie, who was initially responsible for launching it. Another Diné chef working in the area of haute cuisine with indigenous ingredients is Brian Yazzie https://www.yazziethechef.com/press. Both incorporate an intertribal approach which incorporates ingredients and techniques from throughout the Americas.

That's just a sampling. You can find a lot more information and links here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenou ... e_Americas.

I have read that there is actually significant controversy amongst Native Americans with regard to frybread, which while many have embraced it, others have regarded it as being a consequence of being forced to give up their former foodways by the US government and live on government rations, and as contributing to many of the health problems experienced by Native Americans today.

There is probably something to be said for the difference between the willing adoption of new ingredients and their forced adoption.

If two women characters in a work of fiction have a long and detailed conversation about a wide range of topics, and one of these topics is a man, do they fail or pass the Bechdel Test?

I say pass if it is the type of conversation where topics drift and you can distinguish between different parts of the conversation by topic. A twenty minute conversation where they discuss sharks in the first five minutes and Owen Wilson’s role in The Life Aquatic in the last five minutes seems like it passes since the animal bit didn’t overlap with the man bit.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:27 am If two women characters in a work of fiction have a long and detailed conversation about a wide range of topics, and one of these topics is a man, do they fail or pass the Bechdel Test?

Why does it matter? The Bechdel test isn't the Sakaguchi test. It's only meant as a rule of thumb. There are definitely examples of works which pass it and still fail to do a good job of representing women and vice-versa.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:27 am If two women characters in a work of fiction have a long and detailed conversation about a wide range of topics, and one of these topics is a man, do they fail or pass the Bechdel Test?

It fails. Because the Bechdel Test (or Bechdel-Wallace Test) is not the be-all, end-all Test of Movie Feminism; It was a test to see if a self identified dyke could watch a movie and see herself in one or two of the characters. It was a very specific test for a specific subset of women.

Civil War Bugle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:51 am I say pass if it is the type of conversation where topics drift and you can distinguish between different parts of the conversation by topic. A twenty minute conversation where they discuss sharks in the first five minutes and Owen Wilson’s role in The Life Aquatic in the last five minutes seems like it passes since the animal bit didn’t overlap with the man bit.

My understanding of the Bechdel test is that it's about the discussion of men as potential romantic interest - so if they discuss Owen Wilson's looks, it's a fail, but if they discuss his acting or his political views, it's not.

I always took it as A. a rule of thumb like Linguoboy says, one that may be fun to think about but is only one aspect of the general topic; and B. a very specific test. I basically go with the elements as I remember them being described in the original comic where it seemed comparable to some of those rules you see in law cases: did X happen AND did Y happen WITHOUT Z happening? If so, it passes, even if it passed in a non-optimal way. Other people might interpret the rule differently but that’s how I approach it.

alice wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:31 pm

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:11 pm Well, that's fine seeing as British cuisine shouldn't include Scottish cuisine which includes the likes of cullen skink.

And the pièce-de-resistance, the deep-fried-pizza.

But that isn't a potato fish soup with onions in. Deep fried pizzas also exist in Italy.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:59 pm
It fails. Because the Bechdel Test (or Bechdel-Wallace Test) is not the be-all, end-all Test of Movie Feminism; It was a test to see if a self identified dyke could watch a movie and see herself in one or two of the characters. It was a very specific test for a specific subset of women.

Thank you, that's the kind of information I was looking for.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:24 pm

Civil War Bugle wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:51 am I say pass if it is the type of conversation where topics drift and you can distinguish between different parts of the conversation by topic. A twenty minute conversation where they discuss sharks in the first five minutes and Owen Wilson’s role in The Life Aquatic in the last five minutes seems like it passes since the animal bit didn’t overlap with the man bit.

My understanding of the Bechdel test is that it's about the discussion of men as potential romantic interest - so if they discuss Owen Wilson's looks, it's a fail, but if they discuss his acting or his political views, it's not.

Thats pretty much what I'd heard, only it focused more on relationships...as I understood it when I heard of it, just discussing the looks of someone or something (Owen Wilson, a rainbow, etc), wouldn't fail the Test, provided the participants are able to talk about more than just one topic.

If the only topic of conversation is basically "OMG so-and-so is gorgeous and I'm going to have their babies", that would fail, (also, "if i could have their babies, i would" fails it)

My understanding is that the Bechdel Test isn't necessarily very much use applied to a single film (there's all sorts of reasons a film might fail without being particularly unfeminist), but gives interesting results when applied to lots of films at once, because a large proportion of them fail it and that's probably telling us something.

Curlyjimsam wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:42 am My understanding is that the Bechdel Test isn't necessarily very much use applied to a single film (there's all sorts of reasons a film might fail without being particularly unfeminist), but gives interesting results when applied to lots of films at once, because a large proportion of them fail it and that's probably telling us something.

This is my understanding too. It’s even more revealing when you combine it with the reverse test: http://jbr.me.uk/sfstats.html#4 has a nice overview.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:54 am

Curlyjimsam wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:42 am My understanding is that the Bechdel Test isn't necessarily very much use applied to a single film (there's all sorts of reasons a film might fail without being particularly unfeminist), but gives interesting results when applied to lots of films at once, because a large proportion of them fail it and that's probably telling us something.

This is my understanding too. It’s even more revealing when you combine it with the reverse test: http://jbr.me.uk/sfstats.html#4 has a nice overview.

I cannot help but lol at the comments on the Sausage Zone test, particularly (emphasis mine):

John W. Campbell Jr. (longtime editor of Astounding) wrote several novellas on the borders of the Sausage Zone. Staying in Antarctica, “Who Goes There?” (1938) is disqualified by its cows; but Uncertainty (1936, AKA The Ultimate Weapon) is closer. While it's full of “she”s, many of which have “sisters”, all of them turn out to be spaceships, worlds, or experimental gadgets. Unless the existence of married crewmen counts (Campbell might have thought so, but I don't), there's no trace of female living beings beyond a single reference to “every man, woman and child in the system”.

So the Sausage Zone test is disqualified by the existence of female cattle?