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Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:33 am
by Travis B.
jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:06 am
Pwaya wik mi mek ahcip rong rong. Mi ray nasti tweet pon resis man, oba im pikop an fwonwa tweet don fah ray-wing trol, an folong mi di af dosm-dem ras resis an fah ray-wing man ansa bol an kohs. Olso, dis ya de, it co nof a dem i-mel fo-mi jop kompanyi (mi in no-nem pon Twitter, an mi nem a kway wan wan an mi de atan pon LinkedIn), an fo-mi bos in pleja.
Last week I made a grave error. I wrote a nasty tweet to a racist, but it was picked-up and retweeted by a far-right troll, and soon I got dozens of furious racist and far-right people shouting and name-calling. On top of that, today I learned that a bunch of them e-mailed the company I work for (I'm not anonymous on Twitter, and my name is quite unique and I'm present on LinkedIn), and my boss wasn't amused.
Nuuxa jakut
people excrement-GEN
Scumbags
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2024 12:22 pm
by xxx
jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:06 am
Pwaya wik mi mek ahcip rong rong. Mi ray nasti tweet pon resis man, oba im pikop an fwonwa tweet don fah ray-wing trol, an folong mi di af dosm-dem ras resis an fah ray-wing man ansa bol an kohs. Olso, dis ya de, it co nof a dem i-mel fo-mi jop kompanyi (mi in no-nem pon Twitter, an mi nem a kway wan wan an mi de atan pon LinkedIn), an fo-mi bos in pleja.
xÂÉ¿x»Íº[¹¼æÊtÊv½Ì
(these places immaterial and giving strength to words of men without brain...)
social networks increase the power of idiots to cause trouble...
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:24 am
by Imralu
masako wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:46 am
taku kamyo masin tenkapua
BROTHER 3PL.GEN DOOR.FRAME-ACC REPAIR-PFV
Their brother has repaired the door frame.
Buwénappámbīd džágittláŋ.
b<uw>én-ā-páp-nī-d džág-ī-tláŋ
use.hand<RET>-SBJ.R2-be.brother-INAL-DEM become.fixed-SBJ.R5-be.doorway
Their/that one's brother has repaired the door frame (by hand).
(
Tqāš! Puwiyáppabaqā.)
(OMFG, I have become Pappaba.)
jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 10:06 am
Pwaya wik mi mek ahcip rong rong.
Last week I made a grave error.
Yehimábogaurrésis.
y<eh><im><ab>óg-aū-résis
die<JUSS><DUR><very>-SBJ.ANIM-be.racist
Kqehážiqqerúndīd.
kq<eh>áž-ī-q<er>úl-nī-d
pop<JUSS>-SBJ.R5-use.head<tool/organ>-INAL-DEM
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 2:09 am
by xxx
masako wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:46 am
taku kamyo masin tenkapua
Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:24 am
Buwénappámbīd džágittláŋ.
ucüĄUþĂVAjçąĀw¾
(my ignorance of problem of door of the house...)
what's wrong with the door...
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:35 am
by Imralu
xxx wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 2:09 am
masako wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:46 am
taku kamyo masin tenkapua
Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:24 am
Buwénappámbīd džágittláŋ.
ucüĄUþĂVAjçąĀw¾
(my ignorance of problem of door of the house...)
what's wrong with the door...
Džizádzuwagī.
dž<iz><ádz><uw>ág-ī
repair(PASS)<PST><NEG><RET>-SBJ.R5
It was not (in a state of having been) fixed.
Es war nicht repariert.
(It really frustrates me that English doesn't have an easy and clear way to distinguish
džág repariert werden from
džuwág repariert sein. A huge number of basic roots in Tobarese have passive translations and the glosses for dynamic and stative forms are either the same or awkward.)
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:12 am
by bradrn
Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:35 am
It really frustrates me that English doesn't have an easy and clear way to distinguish
džág repariert werden from
džuwág repariert sein.
Nay imbiwsab?
/naj.im.biwˈsab̚/
nay imbi-w·sab
how 3p-differ
What’s the difference?
Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:24 am
(
Tqāš! Puwiyáppabaqā.)
(OMFG, I have become Pappaba.)
Nan biʔbusiwwelwaʔ lbuʔ?
/nan.biʔ.bu.siw.welˈwaʔ.lbuʔ/
nan biʔ-bu-siw-wel-waʔ lbuʔ
what 3s.Q-but-PFV-go-do actually
Actually, whatever happened to him?
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:28 am
by Travis B.
Tuurima qo aagiyo da.
wonder-AGT.1.S-PST.IPFV PROX.S.INAN go-LOC PROX.S.ANIM
I always wondered where he went off to.
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:44 am
by WeepingElf
Thahi nu ad CBBsjam chvi FrathWikisjam.
stay-3SG:P-PRS now at CBB-GEN-ATTR-OBJ and FrathWiki-GEN-ATTR-OBJ
'He is on CBB and FrathWiki now.'
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:00 pm
by bradrn
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:44 am
Thahi nu ad CBBsjam chvi FrathWikisjam.
Nay rnos mbifwes?
/naj ʒnos.mbifˈwes/
nay r-nos mbi-fw·es
how ACC-this.ANA 2s.Q-say·ITER
How do you pronounce this?
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 2:43 am
by xxx
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:44 amThahi nu ad CBBsjam chvi FrathWikisjam.
xy haw qwawax waw’w xwq wqy
(me not knowing name of this language...)
what language is this...
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:30 am
by WeepingElf
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:00 pm
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:44 am
Thahi nu ad CBBsjam chvi FrathWikisjam.
Nay rnos mbifwes?
/naj ʒnos.mbifˈwes/
nay r-nos mbi-fw·es
how ACC-this.ANA 2s.Q-say·ITER
How do you pronounce this?
['θɐhɪ nʊ ɐd sɪbɪ'bɪsjɐm xwi ɸrɐθwɪ'kɪsjɐm]
xxx wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 2:43 am
xy haw qwawax waw’w xwq wqy
(me not knowing name of this language...)
what language is this...
Albicham.
['ɐlbɪxɐm]
Elf-ish-OBJ
Old Albic.
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:56 am
by masako
oleta nya ina nipopayek
3s-P.2s for eat compel-ABIL-NEG
She could not force you to eat.
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:02 am
by bradrn
masako wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:56 am
oleta nya ina nipopayek
3s-P.2s for eat compel-ABIL-NEG
She could not force you to eat.
?
?
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:16 am
by doctor shark
- Une dictato èo slujebenu dei ressorsi omniloi di s'Academeiu Lussemborgir en françir scribut avare fuissi çe obligessiõ per ater un rèponda obrenare.
- one.M letter to.M.DEF service of.M.PL resource.PL human.GEN.M.PL of DEF-university Luxembourg.GEN.M in France.GEN.M write.PST.PART have.INF be.3.PST what require.1.PL.PST.SBJV for finally one.F response obtain.INF
[ˈunɛ dikˈtat̪o ʔɔ sluʒɛˈbenu dej reˈsːoɾsi omˈniloj di sɐkadɛˈmeju lusːemˈboɾgiɾ ɛn ˈfɾant͡ʃiɾ ˈskɾibut͉ ˈavaɾɛ ˈfɥisːi t͡ʃɛ obligɛˈsːjɔ̃ pɛɾ ˈateɾ un rəˈpon̪d̪ɐ oˈbɾenaɾɛ]
An e-mail in French to the University of Luxembourg HR was what we needed to finally get a response.
- Nos disãt çe obrenarie mièir concurantar di trava avõ sa tèrmin della șeptezila-çi, mè lui credurse aprè çe vadarie se concurantar.
- 1.PL.ACC say.3.PL that obtain.1.FUT.SBJV 1.GEN.M agreement of work before DEF.F end of.F.DEF week-PROX | but 3.ACC.M.PL believe.1.FUT after that have.1.FUT.SBJV DEF.M agreement
[nos diˈsɐ̃t͉ t͡ʃɛ obˈɾenaɾjɛ mjɛjɾ konkuˈɾan̪t̪aɾ di ˈt̪ɾavɐ aˈvɔ̃ sa təɾˈmin ˈdelːɐ ʃeptɛˈzilɐt͡ʃi | mɛ lɥi ˈkɾedursɛ ˈaprɛ t͡ʃɛ ˈvadaɾjɛ se konkuˈɾan̪t̪aɾ]
They're telling us that I should have the work contract by the end of this week, but I'll believe them when I have it.
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:25 am
by masako
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:02 am
masako wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:56 am
oleta nya ina nipopayek
3s-P.2s for eat compel-ABIL-NEG
She could not force you to eat.
?
?
ke unyaue ka
TOP know-DES Q
What would you like to know?
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:39 am
by Imralu
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:12 am
Imralu wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:35 am
It really frustrates me that English doesn't have an easy and clear way to distinguish
džág repariert werden from
džuwág repariert sein.
Nay imbiwsab?
/naj.im.biwˈsab̚/
nay imbi-w·sab
how 3p-differ
What’s the difference?
Repariert werden i ngi. Repariert sein i lodzo ya hi ngi.
Repariert werden ("become/get repaired") is an action/event.
Repariert sein ("be (in a) repaired (state)") the resulting state of this action.
Sorry, a whole lot of rambling because I am very tired and this is what happens when I'm tired near a computer.:
If I say "When I got home, the window was broken," it's a bit unclear if I mean that the window was in a broken state because it had been broken before (i.e. it was in pieces, it had been broken), or if only entered that broken state at that time or immediately after (i.e. it got broken, someone broke it). It might seem like a small difference, but it's exactly the same as the difference between "When I got home, my cat was dead," and "When I got home, my cat died," or "When I got home, my ficus was lying on the floor" and "When I got home, my ficus fell over." There's usually a way to resolve the ambiguity very easily, but often the shortest and most convenient translation of things is ambiguous like "be broken". I found this made explaining Swahili grammar to anglophone learners very difficult because the difference between states and actions is usually indicated by the perfect aspect for states:
In the following groups, the first one is active. The second one is passive. The third one is mediopassive/middle voice (erroneously called "stative" by a lot of resources).
Present tense:
Ninavunja dirisha. = I break/I am breaking the window.
Dirisha linavunjwa (nami). = The window is broken/gets broken/is being broken/is getting broken (by me).
Dirisha linavunjika. = The window breaks./The window is breakable.
Present perfect:
Nimevunja dirisha. = I have broken the window.
Dirisha limevunjwa (nami). = The window has been broken/has gotten broken (by me).
Dirisha limevunjika. = The window has broken/is broken.
Past simple:
Nilivunja dirisha. = I broke the window.
Dirisha lilivunjwa (nami). = The window was broken/got broken by me.
Dirisha lilivunjika. = The window broke.
Past perfect:
Nilikuwa nimevunja dirisha. = I had broken the window.
Dirisha lilikuwa limevunjwa (nami). = The window had been broken by me.
Dirisha lilikuwa limevunjika. = The window was broken. / The window had broken.
Swahili doesn't have many adjectives and doesn't have a lot of stative verbs and usually use dynamic verbs indicating changes of state in the perfect to indicate states.
Ninasimama. = I stand up. / I stop (come to a standstill). / I am standing up (rising to my feet). / I am stopping.
Ninalala. = I fall asleep. / I am falling asleep.
Anakufa. = S/he dies/is dying
Nimesimama. = I have stood up. / I am standing (up). (state) / I have stopped.
Nimelala. = I have fallen asleep. / I am sleeping.
Amekufa. = S/he has died / is dead.
Nilisimama. = I stood up. / I stopped.
Nililala. = I fell asleep.
Alikufa. = S/he died.
Nilikuwa nimesimama. = I had stood up. I was standing up.
Nilikuwa nimelala. = I had fallen asleep. / I was sleeping.
Alikuwa amekufa. = S/he had died. / S/he was dead.
So what creates the stative meaning of the mediopassive forms above is either just that they're used in the perfect (e.g. limevunjika = it is broken), which makes ALL verbs essentially about the resultant state, or that specifically the mediopassive, in the present, can have kind of a potential meaning, just as similar sentences do in English when we add an adverb: linavunjika = "it breaks" or "it is breakable" ... c.f. "it breaks easily", which describes a state, c.f. "it cooks well", "it drives well").
Back when Duolingo was a cool website and had forums, before it all went to shit, I used to try to help people understand the difference between things like lilivunjwa "it was broken" (past, passive, dynamic) and lilikuwa limevunjika "it was broken" (present perfect, mediopassive, stative) and it was really difficult. Explaining it in German would have been so much easier, even though German basically lacks aspect, the distinction between an action and its resultant state is usually clear. Lilivunjwa = Es wurde gebrochen/kaputtgeschlagen. Lilikuwa limevunjika = Es war gebrochen/kaputt(geschlagen worden).
In Tobarese, a root may be inherently stative. Entrance into that state is then derived with the inceptive infix <iy>:
búk = be full, be (in a) filled (state)
biyúk = begin to be full, become full, be filled (dynamically)
bán = be a house/building (in a state of having been built)
biyán = be/get built, become a building
... or it may be inherently dynamic. The resultant state is then derived with the perfect/retrospective infix <uw> (always unstressed, contrasting with the causative/antipassive <úw>).
tém = be eaten (dynamically), "get eaten"
tuwém = be (in an) eaten (state)
(C.f. túwem = eat (antipassive))
džág = be repaired (dynamically), "get repaired"
džuwág = be (in a) repaired (state)
(C.f. džúwag = repair/fix (antipassive))
yóg = die
yuwóg = be dead
(C.f. yúwog = kill (antipassive))
"Stand", "sit" and "lie" are also really ambiguous in this way and the addition of "up" and "down" don't help much. "Are you standing up?" could mean "Are you currently rising to your feet?" (unlikely because it's generally a quick action though) or "Are you currently on your feet?"
dáŋ = stand (up), be in a standing position
diyáŋ = stand up, assume a standing position, get up
This ambiguity with sit/stand/lie also made explaining Swahili difficult.
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:44 am
by bradrn
masako wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:25 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:02 am
masako wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:56 am
oleta nya ina nipopayek
3s-P.2s for eat compel-ABIL-NEG
She could not force you to eat.
?
?
ke unyaue ka
TOP know-DES Q
What would you like to know?
Na ni anfwen naʔsnos bitowaʔpes? Naʔ ni sanigiʔssem bifwasnerfin?
/na.ni an.fwen.naʔs.nos.bi.toˈwaʔ.pes | naʔ.ni sa.ni.ɟiʔsˌsem.bif.was.neɾˈfin/
na ni an-fw·en naʔsnos bi-to-waʔ-pes? naʔ ni s-an-igiʔ·s·sem bi-fwas·ne·rfin?
what FOC ACT-say that.ANA Q-DEF.SG-do-BEN? who FOC ACC-ACT-eat Q-force
Why that sentence? Who is forcing the eating?
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:46 am
by bradrn
Imralu wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:39 am
Repariert werden ("become/get repaired") is an action/event.
Repariert sein ("be (in a) repaired (state)") the resulting state of this action.
Ah! Thanks.
As it happens, you didn’t need to ramble, because Eŋes has precisely this distinction too:
wafŋim ‘be broken’ vs
mafŋim ‘get broken’ (vs
wmafŋim ‘break’).
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:47 am
by Imralu
masako wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:56 am
oleta nya ina nipopayek
3s-P.2s for eat compel-ABIL-NEG
She could not force you to eat.
Dziažžizábegē túwemō.
dz-iā-ž<iz><ab>ég-ē t<úw>ém-ō
be.not-FACT-cause<PST><very>-R4 eat[PASS]<CAUS>-R3
She could not force you to eat.
Should I gloss the underived root
tém (be eaten ...
gegessen/gefressen werden, Vorgangspassiv) as "eat
[PASS
]" or "eat
(PASS
)"? I forget what the right notation is for additional information that is not a morpheme and I can't find it in the Leipzig rules right now.
Re: Conlang fluency thread
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:52 am
by Imralu
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:46 amAs it happens, you didn’t need to ramble, because Eŋes has precisely this distinction too:
wafŋim ‘be broken’ vs
mafŋim ‘get broken’ (vs
wmafŋim ‘break’).
Rambling doesn't happen because it is necessary.
It's a force that comes from within ... and it's name is probably ADD.
How do you usually gloss them? What do you give as the translation in a dictionary? The "be"/"get" distinction is useful, but it's awkward for a lot of words, and "be" is inherently ambiguous in these phrases.
It's a force that comes from within ... and it's name is probably ADD.