Zompist Bboard Again

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:03 am

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:18 am

Jonlang wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:57 pm I'm going to bring back the word fax as in head-hair, animal mane. It's a travesty that this word was allowed to die.

So that's why Gandalf's horse is named Shadowfax...

I didn't know that either. I always thought it was a weird name!

The French translation has Gripoil, so it was easy to understand the fax part when I read it in English.

The translators chose to adapt the names instead of leaving them alone and they're generally... well, a bit lame. Gripoil is probably one of the worst choices.

I don't know if I really should complain though; translating LOTR must be horribly difficult.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:03 am

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:03 am

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:18 am

So that's why Gandalf's horse is named Shadowfax...

I didn't know that either. I always thought it was a weird name!

The French translation has Gripoil, so it was easy to understand the fax part when I read it in English.

The translators chose to adapt the names instead of leaving them alone and they're generally... well, a bit lame. Gripoil is probably one of the worst choices.

I don't know if I really should complain though; translating LOTR must be horribly difficult.

The German translators rendered most of the English names as German names, not always to the best effect. For instance, Rivendell became Bruchtal, and Shadowfax became Schattenfell. IMHO, they could have left the English names intact, which sound foreign but recognizable to German readers, and not as otherworldly as the Elvish ones.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:46 am

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:18 am So that's why Gandalf's horse is named Shadowfax...

It has meanwhile been established that Tolkien recorded the name incorrectly.

I think "shadow" alludes to his grey colour which made him almost invisible at night. (At least, according to this fan page.)

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:51 am The German translators rendered most of the English names as German names, not always to the best effect. For instance, Rivendell became Bruchtal, and Shadowfax became Schattenfell. IMHO, they could have left the English names intact, which sound foreign but recognizable to German readers, and not as otherworldly as the Elvish ones.

I was reading the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and one letter touches on the subject. Apparently all translations adapted the names; Tolkien strongly felt it was a bad idea. I don't know why all translators decided to translate them anyway!

The names are basically Old English conlanging, and it's not like they're transparent to the English reader.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:51 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:51 am The German translators rendered most of the English names as German names, not always to the best effect. For instance, Rivendell became Bruchtal, and Shadowfax became Schattenfell. IMHO, they could have left the English names intact, which sound foreign but recognizable to German readers, and not as otherworldly as the Elvish ones.

I was reading the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and one letter touches on the subject. Apparently all translations adapted the names; Tolkien strongly felt it was a bad idea. I don't know why all translators decided to translate them anyway!

The names are basically Old English conlanging, and it's not like they're transparent to the English reader.

Didn't he write a guide, passed to his publishers, for people to use when translating LOTR? Explaining why certain names were chosen and why changing them is a bad idea?

Yes. It seems to have been made after some annoyances with the Dutch and Swedish translation.
It should be said that Tolkien doesn't come across, either in his guide or in his letters, as very easy to work with, which probably explains a few things.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:51 am The German translators rendered most of the English names as German names, not always to the best effect. For instance, Rivendell became Bruchtal, and Shadowfax became Schattenfell. IMHO, they could have left the English names intact, which sound foreign but recognizable to German readers, and not as otherworldly as the Elvish ones.

To me Bruchtal simply does not evoke the same impression as Rivendell, and likewise with Schattenfell and Shadowfax.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:25 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:51 am The German translators rendered most of the English names as German names, not always to the best effect. For instance, Rivendell became Bruchtal, and Shadowfax became Schattenfell. IMHO, they could have left the English names intact, which sound foreign but recognizable to German readers, and not as otherworldly as the Elvish ones.

To me Bruchtal simply does not evoke the same impression as Rivendell, and likewise with Schattenfell and Shadowfax.

Indeed not. The German names sound so prosaic. Bruchtal could be a pony farm on the perimeter of a German town, and Schattenfell one of the ponies they have there.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:53 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:25 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 7:51 am The German translators rendered most of the English names as German names, not always to the best effect. For instance, Rivendell became Bruchtal, and Shadowfax became Schattenfell. IMHO, they could have left the English names intact, which sound foreign but recognizable to German readers, and not as otherworldly as the Elvish ones.

To me Bruchtal simply does not evoke the same impression as Rivendell, and likewise with Schattenfell and Shadowfax.

Indeed not. The German names sound so prosaic. Bruchtal could be a pony farm on the perimeter of a German town, and Schattenfell one of the ponies they have there.

Well, Gandalf did want to be subtle and normal-looking as he went about his duties in the Middle Earth, right?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:51 am I was reading the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and one letter touches on the subject. Apparently all translations adapted the names; Tolkien strongly felt it was a bad idea. I don't know why all translators decided to translate them anyway!

It must have been a weird interaction, because there was nothing like Tolkien when LOTR was being published.

It seems to have been standard practice to calque names in children's literature and comics— and The Hobbit fell in that category. So the foreign publishers probably didn't understand what Tolkien wanted.

And in a sense I don't either! Names like Rivendell and Shadowfax are translations from Westron. Tolkien chose to make them very Englishy. But why shouldn't they be Frenchy for a French reader, etc.? One answer might be "because Tolkien was really good at that sort of thing and the translator isn't", but publishers then would be unlikely to swallow that.

But then by modern tastes the book should have remained one about Maura Labingi.

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:13 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:51 am I was reading the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and one letter touches on the subject. Apparently all translations adapted the names; Tolkien strongly felt it was a bad idea. I don't know why all translators decided to translate them anyway!

It must have been a weird interaction, because there was nothing like Tolkien when LOTR was being published.

It seems to have been standard practice to calque names in children's literature and comics— and The Hobbit fell in that category. So the foreign publishers probably didn't understand what Tolkien wanted.

And in a sense I don't either! Names like Rivendell and Shadowfax are translations from Westron. Tolkien chose to make them very Englishy. But why shouldn't they be Frenchy for a French reader, etc.? One answer might be "because Tolkien was really good at that sort of thing and the translator isn't", but publishers then would be unlikely to swallow that.

But then by modern tastes the book should have remained one about Maura Labingi.

It's still standard practice as far as fantasy is concerned, at least in French. (Pratchett's translator even improves on the jokes at times.)

Ultimately, that sort of thing is fun to talk about but unimportant I guess -- people still bought, read and enjoyed the books and that is the important part.

On second thought... I think I've been too harsh on the French translation yesterday. A few names are jarring: Gripoil, Arachné but thinking back on it a lot of them are clever. Rivendell is Fondcombe. Combe is an old and somewhat unusual word, plus nd/mb looks Elvish enough. One problem is that it loses the meaning. A combe is more of a roundish kind of valley -- I think the English equivalent would be hollow.

They've published a new translation recently. It looks like they improved things a bit; Rivendell becomes Fendeval which keeps both meaning and esthetics (nd + final -l); Shelob is Araigne; Shadowfax is Scadufax (the Old English form.)
I'll check it out when my kids are old enough to read it

I really like Auenland and Elben in the German translation. I think I once heard a story about Tolkien really loving Elben

Elben is an interesting case. The word existed in German, but was hardly used anymore, and either Tolkien or his translator felt that Elfen, which had displaced it, felt wrong because it connoted tiny winged fairies even more than English elves did. As zompist rightly points out, there was nothing like Tolkien's work before. Especially his Elves were a very original new creation (though they are firmly rooted in Germanic and to a lesser degree also in Celtic mythology).

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:39 amOn second thought... I think I've been too harsh on the French translation yesterday. A few names are jarring: Gripoil, Arachné but thinking back on it a lot of them are clever.

In the introduction of the Latin translation of The Hobbit, the translator spends a paragraph or two, talking about the Greek name Arachne and the Old English word attercop and wonders if old Shelob would like the comparison to a woman who crossed the gods. If I ever find the book again, I could post the passage.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:39 am Combe is an old and somewhat unusual word, plus nd/mb looks Elvish enough. One problem is that it loses the meaning. A combe is more of a roundish kind of valley -- I think the English equivalent would be hollow.

I think the English equivalent would be co(o)mbe, seeing as both the English and French words are both derived from Proto-Celtic and are cognate with modern Celtic words like Welsh cwm. A dell, however, is the same as a combe/hollow but narrower and deeper.

Is submarine the new balloon?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 10:31 am Is submarine the new balloon?

I guess in this case, there really are, or were, people in that submarine. But in the sense of "something shiny for certain media outlets to obsess over", arguably yes.

With crazy billionaire antics on top of that though.

I don't like the sound of Maura Labingi

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:56 am I don't like the sound of Maura Labingi

Well, it sounds like an Italian fashion or fragrance brand