Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 06, 2026 2:39 pmAlso, slight clarification -- PWGmc *sk was preserved at least in some positions as [sk] (or reverted from [sx] to [sk]?) in some parts of Low Franconian (e.g. West Flemish), but not in the dialects StD is descended from.

There's indeed Dutch dialects that retained /sk/, West Frisian comes to mind (although that may be the influence of the Frisian substrate).


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 06, 2026 3:05 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 06, 2026 2:39 pmAlso, slight clarification -- PWGmc *sk was preserved at least in some positions as [sk] (or reverted from [sx] to [sk]?) in some parts of Low Franconian (e.g. West Flemish), but not in the dialects StD is descended from.

There's indeed Dutch dialects that retained /sk/, West Frisian comes to mind (although that may be the influence of the Frisian substrate).

By West Frisian you mean West-Fries (i.e. the Dutch dialects spoken in parts of North Holland that were once Frisian-speaking), not West Frisian as in Westlauwers Fries, right?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 06, 2026 3:10 pmBy West Frisian you mean West-Fries (i.e. the Dutch dialects spoken in parts of North Holland that were once Frisian-speaking), not West Frisian as in Westlauwers Fries, right?

Correct.


JAL

@Travis: I don't have my books with me, but that looks like the kind of thing where the evidence has been discussed thrice over already a century ago. To find the discsussions, you probably need to get an in-depth textbook on German language history or MHG / OHG and follow up on the references to some 19th century / early 20th century journals...

I'm listening to Rammstein, and one thing I notice is that final schwa is often deleted when the next word in an utterance begins with a vowel. Is this a normal thing in German, is this specifically a feature of sung German, or is this in particular a feature of Till Lindemann's sung German?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:24 am I'm listening to Rammstein, and one thing I notice is that final schwa is often deleted when the next word in an utterance begins with a vowel. Is this a normal thing in German, is this specifically a feature of sung German, or is this in particular a feature of Till Lindemann's sung German?

I don't know enough about linguistics to really understand or answer the question, but I can tell you that Lindemann's singing voice is deliberately meant to sound strange and unusual.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:31 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:24 am I'm listening to Rammstein, and one thing I notice is that final schwa is often deleted when the next word in an utterance begins with a vowel. Is this a normal thing in German, is this specifically a feature of sung German, or is this in particular a feature of Till Lindemann's sung German?

I don't know enough about linguistics to really understand or answer the question, but I can tell you that Lindemann's singing voice is deliberately meant to sound strange and unusual.

One thing I do notice is that Till Lindemann has a tendency to open near-close vowels to being close-mid, e.g. pronouncing geküsst in "Und dann hat er sie geküsst" in the song Nebel as [ɡəˈkʰøst].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:34 am One thing I do notice is that Till Lindemann has a tendency to open near-close vowels to being close-mid, e.g. pronouncing geküsst in "Und dann hat er sie geküsst" in the song Nebel as [ɡəˈkʰøst].

That's probably a deliberate imitation of Hitler.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:42 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:34 am One thing I do notice is that Till Lindemann has a tendency to open near-close vowels to being close-mid, e.g. pronouncing geküsst in "Und dann hat er sie geküsst" in the song Nebel as [ɡəˈkʰøst].

That's probably a deliberate imitation of Hitler.

Are you sure about that? Rammstein specifically isn't right-wing, e.g. their song Links 2-3-4, while militant, is clearly directly inspired by the Einheitsfrontlied more than anything. Also, Nebel is a very 'soft' song by Rammstein standards.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:42 amThat's probably a deliberate imitation of Hitler.

"Probably" in what regard? Your personal deduction?


JAL

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:24 am I'm listening to Rammstein, and one thing I notice is that final schwa is often deleted when the next word in an utterance begins with a vowel. Is this a normal thing in German, is this specifically a feature of sung German, or is this in particular a feature of Till Lindemann's sung German?

That's common in several colloquial varieties of German. For instance, many people say heut' abend instead of heute abend 'tonight'.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:42 amThat's probably a deliberate imitation of Hitler.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 11:27 am Are you sure about that? Rammstein specifically isn't right-wing, e.g. their song Links 2-3-4, while militant, is clearly directly inspired by the Einheitsfrontlied more than anything. Also, Nebel is a very 'soft' song by Rammstein standards.

jal wrote: ↑Sat Mar 14, 2026 11:34 am "Probably" in what regard? Your personal deduction?


JAL

I'm not sure about their politics, but in any case, they've always been more about being provocative than about anything else. And before the recent unfortunate turns in politics, imitating Hitler was about as provocative as you could get.

Now, people whose first language is something else than German might not be aware of this, but in Germany and probably other German-speaking countries as well, for a while, most people who were at least somewhat aware of at least the pop culture version of history had at least some vague idea of what the distinguishing features of Hitler's idiolect were. Recordings of his speeches aren't just some guy screaming random stuff in a language you don't understand here. Many comedians, and people who wanted to think of themselves as comedians, at least sometimes did some speak-in-Hitler's-voice routines.

So when a German singer who's public persona is to a good deal about being provocative sings in a physical voice that sounds a bit like Hitler's, I don't buy that it's a coincidence.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2026 3:34 amSo when a German singer who's public persona is to a good deal about being provocative sings in a physical voice that sounds a bit like Hitler's, I don't buy that it's a coincidence.

Nobody forces you to buy anything, but without actual evidence, it's just your personal opinion innit?


JAL

Why does the German language use the word "Unterlagen", that is, "things you lay under/beneath something else", for written paper documents? I mean, while your actually working with them, it's generally not a good idea to put something else on top of them, right?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 1:52 pm Why does the German language use the word "Unterlagen", that is, "things you lay under/beneath something else", for written paper documents? I mean, while your actually working with them, it's generally not a good idea to put something else on top of them, right?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Unterlage wrote: Etymology

Verbal noun of unterliegen, equivalent to unter- (“under”) +‎ Lage (“position, lying, layer”). Middle High German underlāge is already attested, but only in the sense of “being defeated” (still present in the verb unterliegen, but long lost in the noun; compare Niederlage). The sense “document” from the notion of “papers used as basis, support”.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 2:11 pm

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Unterlage wrote: The sense “document” from the notion of “papers used as basis, support”.

I'm afraid that's not that helpful.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 4:51 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 2:11 pm

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Unterlage wrote: The sense “document” from the notion of “papers used as basis, support”.

I'm afraid that's not that helpful.

It may make more sense if you look at the original meanings of Latin documentum— proof, example, lesson— thus evidence, something supporting a claim. 'Document' as a mere piece of paper is a later meaning.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 5:20 pm
It may make more sense if you look at the original meanings of Latin documentum— proof, example, lesson— thus evidence, something supporting a claim. 'Document' as a mere piece of paper is a later meaning.

Thank you! Still, in some other contexts, "Unterlage" means something that you don't directly work with, such as something you put under the paper you're reading and on which you're writing.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 5:25 pm Thank you! Still, in some other contexts, "Unterlage" means something that you don't directly work with, such as something you put under the paper you're reading and on which you're writing.

Well, words can have more than one meaning...
On the original image, see how we also talk about the basis / Grundlage of a claim, or ask someone to support / untermauern it with documents.
So the development was probably somethin like "basis" (of a claim) -> "documents supporting a claim" -> "documents in general".

hwhatting wrote: ↑Wed Mar 25, 2026 4:53 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 5:25 pm Thank you! Still, in some other contexts, "Unterlage" means something that you don't directly work with, such as something you put under the paper you're reading and on which you're writing.

Well, words can have more than one meaning...
On the original image, see how we also talk about the basis / Grundlage of a claim, or ask someone to support / untermauern it with documents.
So the development was probably somethin like "basis" (of a claim) -> "documents supporting a claim" -> "documents in general".

Thank you!