What is the most optimal phonological spread possible?

[HolyKnowing]

There are only five fundamental clicks

Six, actually.

and they do not interact well with the rest of human phonology.

They interact just fine. Plenty of people speak languages with clicks, and they don’t seem to encounter any problems doing so.

What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.

[bradrn]

It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks.

14 million people speak Zulu. 10 million speak Xhosa. 2 million speak Swazi, 1 million speak Ndebele, 200,000 speak Khoekhoe. When I visited family in South Africa last year, I overheard plenty of people talking in languages with clicks.

we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.

I don’t know what you mean by this.

[Darren]

What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.

I'm not sure whether you're a nutcase or a very dedicated troll.

[bradrn]

What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.

I'm not sure whether you're a nutcase or a very dedicated troll.

My guess is that he just doesn’t have a huge amount of linguistic knowledge. We all have to start somewhere, after all.

[HolyKnowing]

What are you talking about? It is literally just one tribe in the Khoisan desert in Africa that speaks with clicks. Including clicks will cause the phonology to explode and we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.

I'm not sure whether you're a nutcase or a very dedicated troll.

I'm relying on stereotypes, meaning the latter. Trolls are fairytale creatures, attached conceptually to giants.

My guess is that he just doesn’t have a huge amount of linguistic knowledge. We all have to start somewhere, after all.

Practice makes perfect. Also it still is objective reality that in all those languages you referenced that including clicks causes all of their consonant inventories to explode in an uncontrolled way.

[bradrn]

I’m not going to bother with this any more. I don’t have the energy for discussions with someone who isn’t interested in having a good-faith conversation.

[HolyKnowing]

I’m not going to bother with this any more. I don’t have the energy for discussions with someone who isn’t interested in having a good-faith conversation.

Hmm... a little judgmental, are we? Faith often stirrs judgment. Also exhaustion ("I don't have the energy") isn't a solution to anything.

[Travis B.]

I'm of the nutcase-or-troll opinion here.

[HolyKnowing]

I'm of the nutcase-or-troll opinion here.

"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.

[Travis B.]

I'm of the nutcase-or-troll opinion here.

"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.

You have been making no sense at all in this thread. And I am not the only person to come to that conclusion.

[Darren]

I'm of the nutcase-or-troll opinion here.

"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.

I gave up on thinking long ago! You should try it too.

[HolyKnowing]

I'm of the nutcase-or-troll opinion here.

"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.

You have been making no sense at all in this thread. And I am not the only person to come to that conclusion.

Why is it my responsibility to anticipate ahead of time what makes sense and what doesn't? I'm not a mind-reader like James Randi, am I? Rather, if something written doesn't make sense, is it not your responsibility to ask me questions?

[Jonlang]

"Thinking is difficult: that's why most people judge." - Carl Jung.

You have been making no sense at all in this thread. And I am not the only person to come to that conclusion.

Why is it my responsibility to anticipate ahead of time what makes sense and what doesn't? I'm not a mind-reader like James Randi, am I? Rather, if something written doesn't make sense, is it not your responsibility to ask me questions?

It should be the responsibility of a moderator to knock this nonsense on the head.

[zompist]

It should be the responsibility of a moderator to knock this nonsense on the head.

There's a lot of blame to go around.

It's not helpful for people to be calling a newbie crazy or a troll. If the dude's project doesn't interest you, leave it alone.

On the other hand, this

we already have one desert language (Hebrew) that destroyed the Universe.

was flagged as antisemitism, and I advise HolyKnowing to stay well away from that. Blaming a language for anything is just foolish, but bigotry is against the house rules.

In short, both sides, try to be civil. Longtimers, remember you had to learn things for the first time once; HolyKnowing, review the guidelines for new people in the Ephemera subforum.

[bradrn]

It's not helpful for people to be calling a newbie crazy or a troll.

Well, he did openly admit to trolling (insofar as that post makes much sense at all). I’m happy to talk to people who simply don’t have much linguistic knowledge: but I have no interest in trying to have a civil conversation with someone who won’t engage in good faith.

[Travis B.]

In short, both sides, try to be civil. Longtimers, remember you had to learn things for the first time once; HolyKnowing, review the guidelines for new people in the Ephemera subforum.

While my comments may have been a bit strident, it is one thing to be a newbie (we have had plenty here, most not like HolyKnowing thankfully), it is another thing to be an arrogant newbie who steadfastly refuses to listen to more seasoned voices and claims that they are being oppressed when others point out things that don't make sense.

[Richard W]

The goal is to create a language for knowledge storage, for the benefit of LLM's like ChatGPT. Given this, interoperability with extant human languages is not necessary. What is necessary is that the language be a self-sustaining, complete, and consistent system that the LLM and its community of human operators, developers, and engineers love to use... once they've grown into it.
Lastly, keep in mind that learning the sounds of a language Is one-and-done: you commit to it once, and you never have to do it again and are stuck with the sounds forever. How large should a phoneme inventory be with that in mind?

I think you've overlooked a trade-off. I think the number of phonemes per second varies between languages, and a simpler set of phonemes may allow for more slurring. In terms of information per syllable, you've overlooked the possibility of using tones.

[alice]

You might want to approach the problem from the other direction and ask what is the *least* optimal phonological spread possible, and what "least optimal" actually means in this context. What is the least optimal spread of dots inside a circle, for example?

[Travis B.]

The goal is to create a language for knowledge storage, for the benefit of LLM's like ChatGPT. Given this, interoperability with extant human languages is not necessary. What is necessary is that the language be a self-sustaining, complete, and consistent system that the LLM and its community of human operators, developers, and engineers love to use... once they've grown into it.
Lastly, keep in mind that learning the sounds of a language Is one-and-done: you commit to it once, and you never have to do it again and are stuck with the sounds forever. How large should a phoneme inventory be with that in mind?

I think you've overlooked a trade-off. I think the number of phonemes per second varies between languages, and a simpler set of phonemes may allow for more slurring. In terms of information per syllable, you've overlooked the possibility of using tones.

To me, the optimally-small phoneme set is /p t k m n s~ʃ~h r~ɾ~ɺ~l w~ʋ~v j~ʝ/ for consonants and /a i~e u~o/ for vowels...

[HolyKnowing]

The goal is to create a language for knowledge storage, for the benefit of LLM's like ChatGPT. Given this, interoperability with extant human languages is not necessary. What is necessary is that the language be a self-sustaining, complete, and consistent system that the LLM and its community of human operators, developers, and engineers love to use... once they've grown into it.
Lastly, keep in mind that learning the sounds of a language Is one-and-done: you commit to it once, and you never have to do it again and are stuck with the sounds forever. How large should a phoneme inventory be with that in mind?

I think you've overlooked a trade-off. I think the number of phonemes per second varies between languages, and a simpler set of phonemes may allow for more slurring. In terms of information per syllable, you've overlooked the possibility of using tones.

To me, the optimally-small phoneme set is /p t k m n s~ʃ~h r~ɾ~ɺ~l w~ʋ~v j~ʝ/ for consonants and /a i~e u~o/ for vowels...

I think you found optimum minimum correctly. Nicely done! Muy bueno!