Zompist Bboard Again

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:13 pm

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:24 pmAre Old English and Old Norse actually mutually intelligible? To what degree? I have heard conflicting things.

I'm not sure how we'd know. I know Prof. Tom Shippey (who spoke both languages) made this argument, but in the absence of empirical evidence or reliable testimony it's a purely speculative one.

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:24 pm Are Old English and Old Norse actually mutually intelligible? To what degree? I have heard conflicting things.

Old English wrote:Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod to becume þin rice gewurþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. Urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice

Old Norse wrote:Faþer vár es ert í himenríki, verði nafn þitt hæilagt. Til kome ríke þitt, værði vili þin sva a iarðu sem í himnum. Gef oss í dag brauð vort dagligt, Ok fyr gefþu oss synþer órar, sem vér fyr gefom þeim er viþ oss hafa misgert. Leiðd oss eigi í freistni, heldr leys þv oss frá öllu illu.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 6:09 am

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:36 pm Apparently Finnish has also undergone the high german consonant shift compare Proto Uralic *wete with Finnish *vesi. It's even got the *w > *v change. It's also apparently common amongst all the worlds languages.

Finnish hasn't undergone the High German shift. The word vesi shows an assibilation of *t before *i, which is also quite a common change which has nothing to do with the High German consonant shift, but also occurs, among others, in Greek.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:36 pm Don't mind me, I'm just running Proto-Uralic through Hawai'ian sound changes...

EDIT: (I simplified geminates, broke up consonant codas with a, and unrounded the rounded front vowels, but I think it gets the point across)
’ai’i imiheka hinakiwaka wapaina ya kahawelakaihina alawolakaana ya oi’eu’ahilakaana. Eile ona aneku yala’i ya omakunako, ya eikana ona koimikawa koihiaana ’ohakaana welayeikena ’ena’eha.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:18 pmIdeally you'd look at phonemes... e.g. if I'm not mistaken OE rice and ON rike are pronounced the same.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:13 am

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:18 pmIdeally you'd look at phonemes... e.g. if I'm not mistaken OE rice and ON rike are pronounced the same.

I don't think so. OE had an affricate here (some normalised orthographies use <ċ> to reflect this), whereas I think the ON medial was at best [kʲ] (cf. Modern Icelandic [c]).

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:13 am

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:18 pmIdeally you'd look at phonemes... e.g. if I'm not mistaken OE rice and ON rike are pronounced the same.

I don't think so. OE had an affricate here (some normalised orthographies use <ċ> to reflect this), whereas I think the ON medial was at best [kʲ] (cf. Modern Icelandic [c]).

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:24 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:13 am

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:18 pmIdeally you'd look at phonemes... e.g. if I'm not mistaken OE rice and ON rike are pronounced the same.

I don't think so. OE had an affricate here (some normalised orthographies use <ċ> to reflect this), whereas I think the ON medial was at best [kʲ] (cf. Modern Icelandic [c]).

OK, I thought the affrication happened later than it did. Out of curiosity, when and what is the earliest evidence for the affrication?

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:24 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:13 am

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 4:18 pmIdeally you'd look at phonemes... e.g. if I'm not mistaken OE rice and ON rike are pronounced the same.

I don't think so. OE had an affricate here (some normalised orthographies use <ċ> to reflect this), whereas I think the ON medial was at best [kʲ] (cf. Modern Icelandic [c]).

OK, I thought the affrication happened later than it did. Out of curiosity, when and what is the earliest evidence for the affrication?

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:49 am

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:24 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:13 am
I don't think so. OE had an affricate here (some normalised orthographies use <ċ> to reflect this), whereas I think the ON medial was at best [kʲ] (cf. Modern Icelandic [c]).

OK, I thought the affrication happened later than it did. Out of curiosity, when and what is the earliest evidence for the affrication?

I'll have to see what I can find in Jackson. There are early Germanic loans into Welsh which lack palatalisation (e.g. cist), but as palatalisation is a Middle Welsh development, it's unclear to me how earlier forms of the language would have handled an affricate like [t͡ʃ]. Offhand I can't think of any examples where OE /j/ from earlier *ǥ appears as a velar sound. (E.g. OE hlidgeat > OW llidiard.)

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:49 am

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:24 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:13 am
I don't think so. OE had an affricate here (some normalised orthographies use <ċ> to reflect this), whereas I think the ON medial was at best [kʲ] (cf. Modern Icelandic [c]).

OK, I thought the affrication happened later than it did. Out of curiosity, when and what is the earliest evidence for the affrication?

I'll have to see what I can find in Jackson …

There are some German words which are singularly and powerfully effective. For instance, those which describe lowly, peaceful, and affectionate home life; those which deal with love, in any and all forms, from mere kindly feeling and honest good will toward the passing stranger, clear up to courtship; those which deal with outdoor Nature, in its softest and loveliest aspects--with meadows and forests, and birds and flowers, the fragrance and sunshine of summer, and the moonlight of peaceful winter nights; in a word, those which deal with any and all forms of rest, respose, and peace; those also which deal with the creatures and marvels of fairyland; and lastly and chiefly, in those words which express pathos, is the language surpassingly rich and affective. There are German songs which can make a stranger to the language cry.

"Verdammt," and its variations and enlargements, are words which have plenty of meaning, but the SOUNDS are so mild and ineffectual that German ladies can use them without sin. German ladies who could not be induced to commit a sin by any persuasion or compulsion, promptly rip out one of these harmless little words when they tear their dresses or don't like the soup. It sounds about as wicked as our "My gracious." German ladies are constantly saying, "Ach! Gott!" "Mein Gott!" "Gott in Himmel!" "Herr Gott" "Der Herr Jesus!" etc.

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:41 pm

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:49 am

zompist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:24 pm OK, I thought the affrication happened later than it did. Out of curiosity, when and what is the earliest evidence for the affrication?

I'll have to see what I can find in Jackson …

Out of curiosity, which source is ‘Jackson’?

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:01 am Mark Twain, saying, practically complaining, that German is too much of a sweet, mild, gentle language:

There are some German words which are singularly and powerfully effective. For instance, those which describe lowly, peaceful, and affectionate home life; those which deal with love, in any and all forms, from mere kindly feeling and honest good will toward the passing stranger, clear up to courtship; those which deal with outdoor Nature, in its softest and loveliest aspects--with meadows and forests, and birds and flowers, the fragrance and sunshine of summer, and the moonlight of peaceful winter nights; in a word, those which deal with any and all forms of rest, respose, and peace; those also which deal with the creatures and marvels of fairyland; and lastly and chiefly, in those words which express pathos, is the language surpassingly rich and affective. There are German songs which can make a stranger to the language cry.

"Verdammt," and its variations and enlargements, are words which have plenty of meaning, but the SOUNDS are so mild and ineffectual that German ladies can use them without sin. German ladies who could not be induced to commit a sin by any persuasion or compulsion, promptly rip out one of these harmless little words when they tear their dresses or don't like the soup. It sounds about as wicked as our "My gracious." German ladies are constantly saying, "Ach! Gott!" "Mein Gott!" "Gott in Himmel!" "Herr Gott" "Der Herr Jesus!" etc.

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:01 am Mark Twain, saying, practically complaining, that German is too much of a sweet, mild, gentle language:

[...]
German ladies are constantly saying, "Ach! Gott!"
[...]

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:35 amThis reminds me, how did German and apparently some celtic languages end up with the same word - "ach" - meaning very similar things?