Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 8:17 pmI had a rather weird experience at the airport in Kansas City today. I was ordering food and the person at the counter simply did not understand me. My daughter ultimately had to give the order for me, and they understood her.

That is weird, especially because the semantic domain of food ordering is relatively small.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Fri Jun 13, 2025 2:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 8:17 pmI had a rather weird experience at the airport in Kansas City today. I was ordering food and the person at the counter simply did not understand me. My daughter ultimately had to give the order for me, and they understood her.

That is weird, especially because the semantic domain of food ordering is relatively small.


JAL

Also, neither Travis nor his daughter are from Kansas city.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Jun 13, 2025 3:35 am

jal wrote: ↑Fri Jun 13, 2025 2:58 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 12, 2025 8:17 pmI had a rather weird experience at the airport in Kansas City today. I was ordering food and the person at the counter simply did not understand me. My daughter ultimately had to give the order for me, and they understood her.

That is weird, especially because the semantic domain of food ordering is relatively small.


JAL

Also, neither Travis nor his daughter are from Kansas city.

Thing is, NAE dialects are not that far apart, and while I know I have a strong accent, I didn't think mine was that strong.

And on a related note, someone behind the counter of a Burger King in Corpus Christi who I had never met before just knew I was from Wisconsin without me having to tell him. Turns out he had lived in Milwaukee for a while even though I could tell that he was not native to there.

Wasn't sure whether to post this in the English questions thread or the German questions thread, so I'll post it here instead.

This is inspired by people here recently talking about the word "ja", and its use in different languages. So: if you use the word "ja", whether in German, or in some variant of English influenced by, say, South Africa or the USA's Midwest, do you sometimes vary between using a long vowel and using a short vowel? Because, in my experience, I sometimes do. I usually use a long vowel, but sometimes a short one. I can't really put it into words, but I kind of have an instinct for when to use which version.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:25 amif you use the word "ja", whether in German, or in some variant of English influenced by, say, South Africa or the USA's Midwest

In Dutch (where we also have "ja"), the length of the vowel can vary greatly, as can the length of other interjections, depending on what you want to imply. (Also, wouldn't South African English be influence by Afrikaans rather than German?)


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 8:08 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:25 amif you use the word "ja", whether in German, or in some variant of English influenced by, say, South Africa or the USA's Midwest

In Dutch (where we also have "ja"), the length of the vowel can vary greatly, as can the length of other interjections, depending on what you want to imply.

Thank you!

(Also, wouldn't South African English be influence by Afrikaans rather than German?)


JAL

Yes. Two of the reasons I could think of for why someone who speaks English might say "ja" is that they're South African and influenced by Afrikaans, or that they're US Midwestern and influenced by German.

jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 8:08 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:25 amif you use the word "ja", whether in German, or in some variant of English influenced by, say, South Africa or the USA's Midwest

In Dutch (where we also have "ja"), the length of the vowel can vary greatly, as can the length of other interjections, depending on what you want to imply. (Also, wouldn't South African English be influence by Afrikaans rather than German?)

This SAE speaker tends to agree, though I’ve never really paid attention to it.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Jun 16, 2025 5:25 am Wasn't sure whether to post this in the English questions thread or the German questions thread, so I'll post it here instead.

This is inspired by people here recently talking about the word "ja", and its use in different languages. So: if you use the word "ja", whether in German, or in some variant of English influenced by, say, South Africa or the USA's Midwest, do you sometimes vary between using a long vowel and using a short vowel? Because, in my experience, I sometimes do. I usually use a long vowel, but sometimes a short one. I can't really put it into words, but I kind of have an instinct for when to use which version.

The vowel in ja in the dialect in southeastern Wisconsin is unspecified as to length ─ utterance-finally it may be short or long depending on stress, whereas if the next word begins with a fortis obstruent it is short and if followed by something other than a fortis obstruent it is long.

Is there any reason why, in English-language historical writings about the French Revolution, the Comité de salut public is usually translated as "Committee of Public Safety", while in German-language historical writings about the French Revolution, it's usually translated as "Wohlfahrtsausschuss", that is, literally, "Welfare Committee"?

I don't speak French, but I think that the German translation is a bit closer to the original French than the English translation. Am I wrong about that?

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:22 am Is there any reason why, in English-language historical writings about the French Revolution, the Comité de salut public is usually translated as "Committee of Public Safety", while in German-language historical writings about the French Revolution, it's usually translated as "Wohlfahrtsausschuss", that is, literally, "Welfare Committee"?

I don't speak French, but I think that the German translation is a bit closer to the original French than the English translation. Am I wrong about that?

There were 'Committees of Safety' in the English-speaking world before the French Revolution, specifically during the American Revolution, and before it during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 9:41 am

There were 'Committees of Safety' in the English-speaking world before the French Revolution, specifically during the American Revolution, and before it during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms.

Ah, thank you!

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:22 am Is there any reason why, in English-language historical writings about the French Revolution, the Comité de salut public is usually translated as "Committee of Public Safety", while in German-language historical writings about the French Revolution, it's usually translated as "Wohlfahrtsausschuss", that is, literally, "Welfare Committee"?

I don't speak French, but I think that the German translation is a bit closer to the original French than the English translation. Am I wrong about that?

I don't know German well enough but "public safety" is closer to the original meaning than 'welfare'.

Interesting the meaning drifted a little, so 'salut' is either a greeting, or restricted to the religious sense ('salvation') in French now.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 20, 2025 9:55 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 8:22 am Is there any reason why, in English-language historical writings about the French Revolution, the Comité de salut public is usually translated as "Committee of Public Safety", while in German-language historical writings about the French Revolution, it's usually translated as "Wohlfahrtsausschuss", that is, literally, "Welfare Committee"?

I don't speak French, but I think that the German translation is a bit closer to the original French than the English translation. Am I wrong about that?

I don't know German well enough but "public safety" is closer to the original meaning than 'welfare'.

Interesting the meaning drifted a little, so 'salut' is either a greeting, or restricted to the religious sense ('salvation') in French now.

Thank you!

How are the titles of those historical Western rulers who are called "emperors" in English translated into Chinese? What, in comparison, is the Chinese term for Chinese emperors? Do Chinese history books distinguish between Western rulers styled "emperors" and Western rulers styled "kings"? And what is the Japanese Emperor called in Chinese (I mean, other than "blood-drinking enemy")?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jul 05, 2025 3:03 pm How are the titles of those historical Western rulers who are called "emperors" in English translated into Chinese? What, in comparison, is the Chinese term for Chinese emperors? Do Chinese history books distinguish between Western rulers styled "emperors" and Western rulers styled "kings"? And what is the Japanese Emperor called in Chinese (I mean, other than "blood-drinking enemy")?

In Mandarin the title of a Western king is typically 国王 (guówáng).

In Mandarin the title of a Roman emperor is typically 皇帝 (huángdì).

In Mandarin the Japanese Emperor is typically referred to in particular as 天皇 (Tiānhuáng) or 日本天皇 (Rìběn tiānhuáng).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 05, 2025 3:58 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jul 05, 2025 3:03 pm How are the titles of those historical Western rulers who are called "emperors" in English translated into Chinese? What, in comparison, is the Chinese term for Chinese emperors? Do Chinese history books distinguish between Western rulers styled "emperors" and Western rulers styled "kings"? And what is the Japanese Emperor called in Chinese (I mean, other than "blood-drinking enemy")?

In Mandarin the title of a Western king is typically 国王 (guówáng).

In Mandarin the title of a Roman emperor is typically 皇帝 (huángdì).

In Mandarin the Japanese Emperor is typically referred to in particular as 天皇 (Tiānhuáng) or 日本天皇 (Rìběn tiānhuáng).

Oh, thank you!

I'm a bit surprised to learn that Chinese academics grant any "barbarian" rulers the title huángdì (皇帝).

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jul 05, 2025 4:13 pm I'm a bit surprised to learn that Chinese academics grant any "barbarian" rulers the title huángdì (皇帝).

Okay, I'm seeing some things that indicate that 皇帝 may be a modern translation of "Roman emperor" rather than a synchronic title of the Roman emperor in Classical Chinese.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jul 05, 2025 3:03 pm How are the titles of those historical Western rulers who are called "emperors" in English translated into Chinese? What, in comparison, is the Chinese term for Chinese emperors? Do Chinese history books distinguish between Western rulers styled "emperors" and Western rulers styled "kings"? And what is the Japanese Emperor called in Chinese (I mean, other than "blood-drinking enemy")?

Emperor in Chinese is 皇帝 huángdì, which is a compound of two honorifics. The first always seems to have been associated with nobles or royalty; the second is a kind of deity. (The word for God is 上帝 shàngdì, literally 'deity above'.). The Chinese article on Roman emperors uses the term 皇帝 with no fuss.

The Japanese term is 天皇 tennō; however they reserve 皇帝, pronounced kōtei, for foreign emperors. The Chinese Wikipedia uses 天皇, which would be pronounced tiānhuáng, but then equates this to 皇帝. 天皇 is borrowed from Chinese— 'heaven(ly) sovereign'. (Yeah, Ch. huáng ended up as Jp. ō. Then turned into nō by influence of the previous consonant.)

The Chinese word for king is 王 wáng— also a very common Chinese surname. (The Cantonese pronunciation is wong, as in Faye Wong.) Sometimes 国王 guówáng 'nation-king' is used instead— that's what Charles III is called on his Chinese Wikipedia page— but I think this is modern.

More than a thousand years ago, nomadic conquerors began calling themselves emperors, and were sometimes in a position to force the Chinese to call them that. (They also borrowed Mongolian khagan as 可汗 kèhán.)

Traditionally the Chinese were only supposed to have one emperor, who held the Mandate of Heaven. If nothing else, this was required for historiography, since you dated years by the emperor's reign. This did not prevent e.g. three states all claiming to have emperors, after the fall of the Hàn.

You can use 帝国 dìguó for 'empire', and thus refer to the 中华帝国 Zhōnghuá Dìguó 'Chinese Empire', but I am fairly sure this is a modern convention. Generally you referred to the dynasty name— e.g. as a country, during the Ming dynasty you'd talk about the country as 大明 Dàmíng 'Great Ming'. The Roman Empire was referred to in Hàn times as 大秦 Dàqin, but today it's called Luómǎ dìguó, i.e. 'Rome Empire'.