Page 264 of 276
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 12:09 pm
by Richard W
Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 10:28 am
As mentioned there is also an alternate OE form
cyrice which this may have been borrowed from. But whence
cyrice if
cirice came from PWGmc *kirikā?
I suspect there is a minor sound change, possibly only a tendency, i, e > y in the environment /c_rC/. (The <i> before <c> of
cyrice and
cirice was optional.) The change also occurs in the noun
cyrin 'churn'. Vowel breaking appends /u/ to the vowel, and /c/ may have had a tendency to labialisation, as seen in Modern English /ʃ/. It's possible that
churl has a similar history, though I think a spelling with <y> is not attested.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 12:21 pm
by Travis B.
Richard W wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 12:09 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 10:28 am
As mentioned there is also an alternate OE form
cyrice which this may have been borrowed from. But whence
cyrice if
cirice came from PWGmc *kirikā?
I suspect there is a minor sound change, possibly only a tendency, i, e > y in the environment /c_rC/. (The <i> before <c> of
cyrice and
cirice was optional.) The change also occurs in the noun
cyrin 'churn'. Vowel breaking appends /u/ to the vowel, and /c/ may have had a tendency to labialisation, as seen in Modern English /ʃ/. It's possible that
churl has a similar history, though I think a spelling with <y> is not attested.
That sounds more plausible than OE-speakers spelling-pronouncing
cirice based on the spelling of the word in Byzantine Greek.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2025 9:08 pm
by Glass Half Baked
I stumbled across a site with recordings of the Mangareva language, a rare treat. But they're not playing for me. Can other people hear these recordings?
https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/c ... 7765caf815
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2025 1:46 pm
by jal
Nope. The underlying URL gives an error.
JAL
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2025 8:20 am
by bradrn
Today at the hardware store the man at the counter suggested that I buy a [dɾɐːw]. I expressed confusion, so he clarified that what he thought I should buy was a [dɾɐːw]. Eventually I just asked him to spell it out, and it clicked — the word he was saying was drill!
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
by Darren
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 8:20 am
Today at the hardware store the man at the counter suggested that I buy a [dɾɐːw]. I expressed confusion, so he clarified that what he thought I should buy was a [dɾɐːw]. Eventually I just asked him to spell it out, and it clicked — the word he was saying was
drill!
Sounds like a Kiwi to me, although I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:51 pm
by Travis B.
Darren wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 8:20 am
Today at the hardware store the man at the counter suggested that I buy a [dɾɐːw]. I expressed confusion, so he clarified that what he thought I should buy was a [dɾɐːw]. Eventually I just asked him to spell it out, and it clicked — the word he was saying was
drill!
Sounds like a Kiwi to me, although I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
Remember that bradrn is now in Scotland, and you know how Scots (or at least varieties on the continuum between Scottish English and braid Scots) is...
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:57 pm
by bradrn
Darren wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
Really?
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:14 am
by Darren
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:51 pm
Remember that bradrn is now in Scotland, and you know how Scots (or at least varieties on the continuum between Scottish English and braid Scots) is...
Ah of course, in that case brad's forgiven for not understanding.
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:57 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
Really?
Yeah. I occasionally do hear a schwa-like realisation of KIT in regular AusEng speech, and even of NEAR before /l/
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:39 am
by bradrn
Darren wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:14 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:57 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
Really?
Yeah. I occasionally do hear a schwa-like realisation of KIT in regular AusEng speech, and even of NEAR before /l/
On reflection I’m pretty sure I do realise it as centralised at times, so I guess that’s understandable.
That said, what I heard sounded distinctively
lower than schwa. And it’s not the first time I’ve heard that realisation over here!
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:43 am
by Travis B.
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:39 am
Darren wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:14 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:57 pm
Really?
Yeah. I occasionally do hear a schwa-like realisation of KIT in regular AusEng speech, and even of NEAR before /l/
On reflection I’m pretty sure I do realise it as centralised at times, so I guess that’s understandable.
I thought AusE KIT was rather tense, approaching [i] even.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:29 pm
by abahot
Darren wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 8:20 am
Today at the hardware store the man at the counter suggested that I buy a [dɾɐːw]. I expressed confusion, so he clarified that what he thought I should buy was a [dɾɐːw]. Eventually I just asked him to spell it out, and it clicked — the word he was saying was
drill!
Sounds like a Kiwi to me, although I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
I thought the thing in Australia was feesh-and-cheeps? Is the shift reversing direction?
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:37 pm
by bradrn
Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:43 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:39 am
Darren wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:14 am
Yeah. I occasionally do hear a schwa-like realisation of KIT in regular AusEng speech, and even of NEAR before /l/
On reflection I’m pretty sure I do realise it as centralised at times, so I guess that’s understandable.
I thought AusE KIT was rather tense, approaching [i] even.
Could be, but I don’t really speak AusEng.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:48 pm
by Travis B.
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:37 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:43 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:39 am
On reflection I’m pretty sure I do realise it as centralised at times, so I guess that’s understandable.
I thought AusE KIT was rather tense, approaching [i] even.
Could be, but I don’t really speak AusEng.
The Wiki says that AusE KIT is relatively tense.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 1:04 pm
by anteallach
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:37 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:43 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:39 am
On reflection I’m pretty sure I do realise it as centralised at times, so I guess that’s understandable.
I thought AusE KIT was rather tense, approaching [i] even.
Could be, but I don’t really speak AusEng.
South African English supposedly has an allophonic split where it is centralised New Zealand style in most contexts but after certain consonants it remains higher and fronter.
Weirdly I never seem to notice any of this; my NZ shibboleth is the DRESS vowel, not KIT. Perhaps my own background has got me used to a wide range of realisations of KIT.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 1:20 pm
by Travis B.
anteallach wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 1:04 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:37 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:43 am
I thought AusE KIT was rather tense, approaching [i] even.
Could be, but I don’t really speak AusEng.
South African English supposedly has an allophonic split where it is centralised New Zealand style in most contexts but after certain consonants it remains higher and fronter.
Weirdly I never seem to notice any of this; my NZ shibboleth is the DRESS vowel, not KIT. Perhaps my own background has got me used to a wide range of realisations of KIT.
The biggest thing I myself notice about NZE is the DRESS vowel, not the KIT vowel, as well. Of course, my native KIT is rather centralized, and gets lowered some in unstressed syllables.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:33 pm
by Darren
abahot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:29 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 8:20 am
Today at the hardware store the man at the counter suggested that I buy a [dɾɐːw]. I expressed confusion, so he clarified that what he thought I should buy was a [dɾɐːw]. Eventually I just asked him to spell it out, and it clicked — the word he was saying was
drill!
Sounds like a Kiwi to me, although I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
I thought the thing in Australia was feesh-and-cheeps? Is the shift reversing direction?
It's not reversing direction, it's a continuation of the shift. Stage one is /æ ɛ ɪ/ > /æ e i/ (AusEng); then in New Zealand /æ/ raises to /ɛ/, bumping /e/ up to /ɪ/ and knocking /i/ around to /ə/. Basically once KIT has run out of vowel space to raise, it centralises instead.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:36 pm
by Travis B.
Darren wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:33 pm
abahot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 22, 2025 12:29 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Sun Sep 21, 2025 3:40 pm
Sounds like a Kiwi to me, although I reckon the fush-and-chups shift is making its way into Australia too.
I thought the thing in Australia was feesh-and-cheeps? Is the shift reversing direction?
It's not reversing direction, it's a continuation of the shift. Stage one is /æ ɛ ɪ/ > /æ e i/ (AusEng); then in New Zealand /æ/ raises to /ɛ/, bumping /e/ up to /ɪ/ and knocking /i/ around to /ə/. Basically once KIT has run out of vowel space to raise, it centralises instead.
Raising /æ/ (with centralizing /ɑ/) centralized /ɛ/ instead here in the Inland North, and /ɪ/ was pulled along for the ride regardless.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2025 10:47 am
by WeepingElf
And now for something completely different: Apparently, the long mysterious Linear Elamite script
has been deciphered recently.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2025 11:01 am
by bradrn
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 10:47 am
And now for something completely different: Apparently, the long mysterious Linear Elamite script
has been deciphered recently.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this already, though not as a published paper.