Zompist Bboard Again

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 11:42 amA few hours ago, I found the diminutive Säundchen of the English loanword Sound in a German-language music forum. Fun fact is that the form is perfectly regular in German: the suffix -chen triggers umlaut, /au/ umlauts to /oy/, and the spelling is regular (except the initial voiceless /s/, which doesn't occur in that position in native German words and there is therefore no convention how to spell it).

Cool. Isn't the initial S just voiced? At least in Dutch, English loans get very much molded into Dutch phonology, with a few exceptions (and I bet German also devoices final obstruents in loans).


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 3:20 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 11:42 amA few hours ago, I found the diminutive Säundchen of the English loanword Sound in a German-language music forum. Fun fact is that the form is perfectly regular in German: the suffix -chen triggers umlaut, /au/ umlauts to /oy/, and the spelling is regular (except the initial voiceless /s/, which doesn't occur in that position in native German words and there is therefore no convention how to spell it).

Cool. Isn't the initial S just voiced? At least in Dutch, English loans get very much molded into Dutch phonology, with a few exceptions (and I bet German also devoices final obstruents in loans).

From what I have heard, StG tries to be more faithful to the original pronunciation in source languages of loans than some languages, e.g. contrast relatively recent French loans in StG vis-a-vis relatively recent French loans in English.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 3:43 pm

jal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 3:20 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 30, 2025 11:42 amA few hours ago, I found the diminutive Säundchen of the English loanword Sound in a German-language music forum. Fun fact is that the form is perfectly regular in German: the suffix -chen triggers umlaut, /au/ umlauts to /oy/, and the spelling is regular (except the initial voiceless /s/, which doesn't occur in that position in native German words and there is therefore no convention how to spell it).

Cool. Isn't the initial S just voiced? At least in Dutch, English loans get very much molded into Dutch phonology, with a few exceptions (and I bet German also devoices final obstruents in loans).

From what I have heard, StG tries to be more faithful to the original pronunciation in source languages of loans than some languages, e.g. contrast relatively recent French loans in StG vis-a-vis relatively recent French loans in English.

Yes. The same holds for recent English loans. People even try their luck on the English th in words like Thriller.

And when German journalists or commentators talk about political crises in different parts of the world, they will generally try to talk about "gehreeya warfare" rather than "gorilla warfare".

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:28 am And when German journalists or commentators talk about political crises in different parts of the world, they will generally try to talk about "gehreeya warfare" rather than "gorilla warfare".

Do they do this in English too?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:16 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:28 am And when German journalists or commentators talk about political crises in different parts of the world, they will generally try to talk about "gehreeya warfare" rather than "gorilla warfare".

Do they do this in English too?

Do you mean, when they speak English, or when they use English words or names while speaking German?


******


Related: There were many, many things wrong with the original German dub of Star Trek: The Next Generation. The writers of the dubbing scripts seemed to be completely unfamiliar with the concept of False Friends, and rarely ever got the idea that a precise choice of words which sounds normal and colloquial in one language might sound stilted and unnatural in another. But the dub had one advantage over the original English version, and that's that the voice actors usually had some half-way good idea of how to pronounce "Jean-Luc Picard".

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:26 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:16 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:28 am And when German journalists or commentators talk about political crises in different parts of the world, they will generally try to talk about "gehreeya warfare" rather than "gorilla warfare".

Do they do this in English too?

Do you mean, when they speak English, or when they use English words or names while speaking German?

Both.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:26 am Related: There were many, many things wrong with the original German dub of Star Trek: The Next Generation. The writers of the dubbing scripts seemed to be completely unfamiliar with the concept of False Friends, and rarely ever got the idea that a precise choice of words which sounds normal and colloquial in one language might sound stilted and unnatural in another. But the dub had one advantage over the original English version, and that's that the voice actors usually had some half-way good idea of how to pronounce "Jean-Luc Picard".

Native English-speakers are very good at butchering things whose source languages are not English.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:36 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:26 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:16 am
Do they do this in English too?

Do you mean, when they speak English, or when they use English words or names while speaking German?

Both.

Not sure about the former, but pronunciation of English names when mentioned on German news outlets is usually fairly good, in my experience.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:12 amYes. The same holds for recent English loans. People even try their luck on the English th in words like Thriller.

Interesting, because in Dutch that just becomes a "t".


JAL

Stuff like this makes me wary of German pronunciation, because then I have to know not only what words are regarded as French loans, but also the exact manner in which actual Germans attempt to not butcher such French loans.

Case in point, to use an example from another thread -- do Germans pronounce Staatsräson as [ˌʃtaːtsʁɛˈzɔŋ]?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 11:22 am Case in point, to use an example from another thread -- do Germans pronounce Staatsräson as [ˌʃtaːtsʁɛˈzɔŋ]?

Yes, though some at least try to pronounce it with a nasal vowel at the end.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 11:43 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 11:22 am Case in point, to use an example from another thread -- do Germans pronounce Staatsräson as [ˌʃtaːtsʁɛˈzɔŋ]?

Yes, though some at least try to pronounce it with a nasal vowel at the end.

Hence descriptions I have seen of StG as having nasal vowel phonemes in non-native vocabulary.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:16 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:28 am And when German journalists or commentators talk about political crises in different parts of the world, they will generally try to talk about "gehreeya warfare" rather than "gorilla warfare".

Do they do this in English too?

I try to. But social pressure makes me just say "gurrilla" instead of "gorilla".

Starbeam wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:07 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 8:16 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 6:28 am And when German journalists or commentators talk about political crises in different parts of the world, they will generally try to talk about "gehreeya warfare" rather than "gorilla warfare".

Do they do this in English too?

I try to. But social pressure makes me just say "gurrilla" instead of "gorilla".

In the English I am familiar with, gorilla is /ɡəˈrɪlə/ and a homophone with guerilla outside of careful speech (where then gorilla is /ɡɔˈrɪlə/). Pronouncing guerilla as /ɡɛˈrijɑ/ in English to me is akin to saying /ˌpwɛrtoʊˈrikoʊ/, i.e. an affectation of trying to pronounce a nativized loan "correctly".

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:27 pm akin to saying /ˌpwɛrtoʊˈrikoʊ/, i.e. an affectation of trying to pronounce a nativized loan "correctly".

Wait, this isn’t the usual pronunciation in the US?

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:28 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:27 pm akin to saying /ˌpwɛrtoʊˈrikoʊ/, i.e. an affectation of trying to pronounce a nativized loan "correctly".

Wait, this isn’t the usual pronunciation in the US?

In NAE it is typically /ˌpɔrtəˈrikoʊ/; I myself have [ˌpʰɔʁˤɾəːˈʁʷˤiko̞(ː)] or even [ˌpʰɔʁˤɾʁ̩ˤːˈʁʷˤiko̞(ː)]..

If you aren't willing to at least try to pronounce it the correct Spanish way, you might as well go all the way in the other direction and call it "Richport".

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:40 pm If you aren't willing to at least try to pronounce it the correct Spanish way, you might as well go all the way in the other direction and call it "Richport".

Do you expect the average American to say [ˌpwe̞ɾto̞ˈriko̞] complete with trilled [r] and unaspirated [p]? Lol.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:49 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 31, 2025 1:40 pm If you aren't willing to at least try to pronounce it the correct Spanish way, you might as well go all the way in the other direction and call it "Richport".

Do you expect the average American to say [ˌpwe̞ɾto̞ˈriko̞] complete with trilled [r] and unaspirated [p]? Lol.

No, just to get as close to it as is reasonably possible. To at least make a serious effort.