Mis-hearings

Natural languages and linguistics
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Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: Mis-hearings

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

WeepingElf wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:20 pm
Travis B. wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:41 pm I don't think that would stop semantic drift from occurring.
Tis true.

Actually, I am surprised that StG does not use something like *Zäser myself.
Because German never had a /k/ > /ts/ shift. Palatalization of /k/ before front vowels is a Romance thing, not a Continental West Germanic one. Caesar is usually pronounced as if it was spelled Zäsar in German, but when West Germanic borrowed the word from Latin Caesar, this was still pronounced ['kaesar]. Thus, Kaiser is indeed closer to the original Latin word than "Zäsar".
I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Travis B.
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Re: Mis-hearings

Post by Travis B. »

WeepingElf wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:20 pm
Travis B. wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:41 pm I don't think that would stop semantic drift from occurring.
Tis true.

Actually, I am surprised that StG does not use something like *Zäser myself.
Because German never had a /k/ > /ts/ shift. Palatalization of /k/ before front vowels is a Romance thing, not a Continental West Germanic one. Caesar is usually pronounced as if it was spelled Zäsar in German, but when West Germanic borrowed the word from Latin Caesar, this was still pronounced ['kaesar]. Thus, Kaiser is indeed closer to the original Latin word than "Zäsar".
So StG Kaiser is actually a WGmc borrowing rather than a later Latinate borrowing?
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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WeepingElf
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Re: Mis-hearings

Post by WeepingElf »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:29 pm I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Sort of.
Travis B. wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:05 am So StG Kaiser is actually a WGmc borrowing rather than a later Latinate borrowing?
Yep.
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Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: Mis-hearings

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

WeepingElf wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:04 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:29 pm I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Sort of.
Sort-of? Romance-influenced, I would guess?
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WeepingElf
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Re: Mis-hearings

Post by WeepingElf »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:37 am
WeepingElf wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:04 am
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:29 pm I imagine the Caesar, as (I assume) [t͡sʰɛː.zaɐ] is a spelling pronunciation?
Sort of.
Sort-of? Romance-influenced, I would guess?
Yes.
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Ketsuban
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Re: Mis-hearings

Post by Ketsuban »

Travis B. wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:11 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:54 pm The inherited English form would be expected to be either *Caser or *Coser, apparently.
Only if Caesar were inherited from PWGmc as an earlier loan from Latin by OE, though.
Which it was (cāser is attested in the East Anglian royal genealogy and the Rituale Ecclesiae Dunelmensis; cāsaer is found in the Liber Vitae Dunelmensis; the derived cāseren "empress", cāserlīċ "imperial" and cāserdōm "imperial rule" are also attested); it just never made its way into Modern English.
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