Zompist Bboard Again

Tiny thing: Leán appears in the wrong place on the map in its Almeopedia article.

From the Flaidish grammar:



In the vowel chart, is that /ʌ/ perhaps meant to be /ʋ/ or /ʊ/? If not, it looks like it’s in the wrong place — it should at the same level as /ɔ/, if not lower. (I’d put it between /ə/ and /æ/, myself.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:57 am From the Flaidish grammar:



In the vowel chart, is that /ʌ/ perhaps meant to be /ʋ/ or /ʊ/? If not, it looks like it’s in the wrong place — it should at the same level as /ɔ/, if not lower. (I’d put it between /ə/ and /æ/, myself.)

Maybe its to reinfroce the englishness.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:07 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:57 am From the Flaidish grammar:

[snip]

In the vowel chart, is that /ʌ/ perhaps meant to be /ʋ/ or /ʊ/? If not, it looks like it’s in the wrong place — it should at the same level as /ɔ/, if not lower. (I’d put it between /ə/ and /æ/, myself.)

Maybe its to reinfroce the englishness.

But that would make the situation even odder, since English vowel charts universally put /ʌ/ at the bottom-right, below /o/…

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:54 am

In the vowel chart, is that /ʌ/ perhaps meant to be /ʋ/ or /ʊ/? If not, it looks like it’s in the wrong place — it should at the same level as /ɔ/, if not lower. (I’d put it between /ə/ and /æ/, myself.)

Maybe its to reinfroce the englishness.

But that would make the situation even odder, since English vowel charts universally put /ʌ/ at the bottom-right, below /o/…

If they do, they are at best describing some other English. Again, check Labov's Principles of Linguistic Change: Internal Factors. /ʌ/, the vowel in but/putt/shut, is often higher than /oh/ (bought) and /ow/ (boat), and only just below /ʊ/ (put). For quickness I'm using Labov's phonemes since I can just get them off his charts.

In the US, this seems to be the result of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, which significantly backs and raises /ʌ/. I probably have it more than I think, which made it natural to describe Flaidish that way. However, Labov also shows a speaker from Norwich, England, whose /ʌ/ is on the whole higher than /ow/ and /ey/.

Admittedly it's confusing if you compare the standard IPA chart, but foxcatdog is right that the chart is based on English phonology, not the cardinal vowels.

(Also, if you're curious, my /ʊ/ doesn't at all sound like /ʌ/. My /ʊ/ is rounded and higher than /ʌ/. But I'd say my /ʌ/ is slightly higher than /ə/.)

The question would be why it is represented that way instead of with ɤ?

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:01 am The question would be why it is represented that way instead of with ɤ?

I guess because it is usually represented by [ʌ] in the dictionaries.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:20 am If they do, they are at best describing some other English. Again, check Labov's Principles of Linguistic Change: Internal Factors. /ʌ/, the vowel in but/putt/shut, is often higher than /oh/ (bought) and /ow/ (boat), and only just below /ʊ/ (put). For quickness I'm using Labov's phonemes since I can just get them off his charts.

In the US, this seems to be the result of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, which significantly backs and raises /ʌ/. I probably have it more than I think, which made it natural to describe Flaidish that way. However, Labov also shows a speaker from Norwich, England, whose /ʌ/ is on the whole higher than /ow/ and /ey/.

Admittedly it's confusing if you compare the standard IPA chart, but foxcatdog is right that the chart is based on English phonology, not the cardinal vowels.

It seems like there are two separate issues here. Firstly, there is the question of the phonetic realisation of the archiphoneme denoted /ʌ/ in various English dialects. Frankly, I don’t know much about this, and I’m happy to accept that there are dialects where /ʌ/ is higher than /ɔ/ (although for myself they’re more like [ɐ o̞] respectively).

But then there’s the question of: is this a useful convention to follow outside English? After all, the official IPA chart pretty unambiguously assigns quite a different value to the symbol ⟨ʌ⟩ — and let’s not forget that Daniel Jones chose that symbol for the English archiphoneme because he actually had the phone [ʌ] for that vowel, as indeed do many present English varieties. If a grammar chooses to use the symbol /ʌ/ for anything too different to IPA [ʌ]… well, that’s of course fine, and as you note there is precedent, but I’d at least want the fact to be explicitly mentioned to avoid confusion.

A Verdurian-script typo: in the sentence Tróumei so řuk apros pasreteu soa silva, the character ⟨ř⟩ is rendered in Latin script rather than Verdurian.

EDIT: also in Eř iššelceo? later on. There may be others, but in most sentences it seems to be rendered correctly.

EDIT 2: another one: Ut Ënomai ešele azurë!. The culprit is ⟨š⟩ this time.

EDIT 3: yet another: ⟨ē⟩ in Ci-nižezom zure dy ēsele sazë.

EDIT 4: also ⟨š⟩ in So šaden dečipline šual lië ditavul, Nižžue.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 3:33 am A Verdurian-script typo [...]

Thanks much! These should be fixed now.

In the reference grammar: ši-mažtanan ‘in every house’ - this should be "in every city"

The MECK has an instance of “Insufficient personnnel” when it’s talking about Greece and the Persians about a third of the way through the book.

So Haleza Grise wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:28 pm In the reference grammar: ši-mažtanan ‘in every house’ - this should be "in every city"

Fixed.

Man in Space wrote:Insufficient personnnel

Marked for the next edition.

Thanks to you both!

In the reference grammar: (I think)

• žedretru should be žedretu

• lelcelal should be lelcelam

• doncalai maybe should be doncelai...?

Sorry if I've misunderstood anything!

In the ICK: “recitals are particularly enjoyed by herdsman”—I believe this should be “herdsmen”.

In Bardinó er Guryon (reference grammar), the gloss “coyote then choose-past-3s” shouldn't contain “-past”.

From the Verdurian Reference Grammar:

“Zen ředec faye so kensomán.”

I think the article is supposed to be in the dative.

In the CL: “A change of regime often allowed the state to reaquire and redistribute the land” should be spelt “reacquire”.

This is not a typo per se, but I wanted to ask about it.

In the page on Bé belief systems, in the section on the Brɛ́drɔŋje Dàe (Story of Brɛ́drɔŋ), the following passage appears:

Fortunately, as she dies Rèr herself appears (this is before her birth, but don't ask questions) to explain her key role in the whole earthly and cosmic saga. Finally Brɛ́drɔŋ smiles, reveres her divine grandson, and ascends into Paradise.

Shouldn't this be "divine granddaughter," since Rèr is female?

(Incidentally, this is reminiscent of tale of Maranh and Koleva discussed in the reincarnation thread, where Maranh's descendant Koleva appears to tell him what is to come.)