Zompist Bboard Again

Karch wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:44 am Ĕza iñ žawir zboža baveḱa žaǯu žiǯo̬. E̬ ʒaḱ mda šeja aḱ gaǵi šme bacop swi čă.
['ezə 'iɲ 'ʒoawɪr 'zbuoʒə bə'βiecə ʒə'd͡ʒuː ʒɪ'd͡ʒɔː || 'ɛː 'd͡zac 'mdoa 'ʃejə 'ac gə'ɟiː ʃme bə't͡sop swɪ 't͡ʃa]
iñ, ǯe, če, pizvaji, be̬
[ˈiɲ ˈd͡ʒie ˈt͡ʃie pɪz'βoajɪ 'bɛː]

This language has reached, frankly, absurd levels of palatalization.

Time for something new or not yet?

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:33 am Time for something new or not yet?

If so, I suggest the following text:

Hito ha nanika no gisei nashi ni nanimo eru koto ha dekinai.
[çi̥to wa nanʲika no gʲiseː naɕi nʲi nanʲimo eɾɯᵝ koto wa dekʲinai]

Nanika wo eru tame ni ha, doutou no daika ga hitsuyou ni naru.
[nanʲika o eɾɯᵝ tame nʲi wa | doːtoː no daika ga çi̥tsɯᵝjoː nʲi naɾɯᵝ]

Sore ga, renkinjutsu ni okeru toukakoukan no gensoku da.
[soɾe ga rẽŋkĩɲdʑɯᵝtsɯᵝ nʲi okeɾu toːkakoːkãn no gẽnsokɯᵝ da.]

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:15 pm

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:33 am Time for something new or not yet?

If so, I suggest the following text:

Hito ha nanika no gisei nashi ni nanimo eru koto ha dekinai.
[çi̥to wa nanʲika no gʲiseː naɕi nʲi nanʲimo eɾɯᵝ koto wa dekʲinai]

Nanika wo eru tame ni ha, doutou no daika ga hitsuyou ni naru.
[nanʲika o eɾɯᵝ tame nʲi wa | doːtoː no daika ga çi̥tsɯᵝjoː nʲi naɾɯᵝ]

Sore ga, renkinjutsu ni okeru toukakoukan no gensoku da.
[soɾe ga rẽŋkĩɲdʑɯᵝtsɯᵝ nʲi okeɾu toːkakoːkãn no gẽnsokɯᵝ da.]

C > Cˠ / _ɯᵝ
ɯᵝ > ∅ / C[-palatal]_ but not if / _(C){ɯᵝ i}
i > ∅ / C[+palatal]_ but not if / _(C){ɯᵝ i}
i > ɨ / C[+palatalised]_
ɯᵝ > ɨ
∅ > j / V_i

Hito ha nanika no gisei nashi ni nanimo eru koto ha dekinai.
[çto wa nanʲɨka no gʲɨseː naɕ nʲɨ nanʲɨmo eɾˠ koto wa dekʲɨnaji]

Nanika wo eru tame ni ha, doutou no daika ga hitsuyou ni naru.
[nanʲɨka o eɾˠ tame nʲɨ wa | doːtoː no dajika ga çi̥tsˠjˠoː nʲɨ naɾˠ]

Sore ga, renkinjutsu ni okeru toukakoukan no gensoku da.
[soɾe ga rẽŋkĩɲdʑˠɨtsˠ nʲɨ okeɾˠ toːkakoːkãn no gẽnsokˠ da.]

1. topic and case particles fuse with the following noun
2. ɾ > l / everywhere except word-initially, unless velarized
3. voiceless stops lenite intervocalically: p t ts ʧ k > β ɾ z j ɣ
4. velarization disappears
5. remaining voiceless vowels disappear as well
6. fricative + stop and fricative + nasal clusters turn into preaspirated stops and nasals
7. nʲ lʲ > ɲ ʎ, palatalization disappears afterwards

Htowa nanyighano gyisee nashnyi nanyimo er korowa deghinai. Nanyighao er tamenyiwa, dooroono daighaga htsyoonyi nar. Solega renkinjitsnyi ogher tooghaghooghanno gensok da.
[ʰtowa naɲɨɣano gɨseː naɕɲɨ naɲɨmo eɾ koɾowa deɣɨnaji || naɲɨɣao eɾ tameɲɨwa | doːɾoːno dajiɣaga ʰtsjoːɲɨ naɾ || solega rẽŋkĩɲdʑɨtsɲɨ oɣeɾ toːɣaɣoːɣãnno gẽnsok da.]

Karch wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:29 pm 1. topic and case particles fuse with the following noun
2. ɾ > l / everywhere except word-initially, unless velarized
3. voiceless stops lenite intervocalically: p t ts ʧ k > β ɾ z j ɣ
4. velarization disappears
5. remaining voiceless vowels disappear as well
6. fricative + stop and fricative + nasal clusters turn into preaspirated stops and nasals
7. nʲ lʲ > ɲ ʎ, palatalization disappears afterwards

Htowa nanyighano gyisee nashnyi nanyimo er korowa deghinai. Nanyighao er tamenyiwa, dooroono daighaga htsyoonyi nar. Solega renkinjitsnyi ogher tooghaghooghanno gensok da.
[ʰtowa naɲɨɣano gɨseː naɕɲɨ naɲɨmo eɾ koɾowa deɣɨnaji || naɲɨɣao eɾ tameɲɨwa | doːɾoːno dajiɣaga ʰtsjoːɲɨ naɾ || solega rẽŋkĩɲdʑɨtsɲɨ oɣeɾ toːɣaɣoːɣãnno gẽnsok da.]

1) {a o ɨ}w{a o} > ɔː, {a e}ji > ɛː
2) ji ɨ > ɿ in open syllables, ɿ > s̩ after unvoiced consonants; ɨ > ɛ otherwise
3) Nɿ > N̩
4) e o > i u
5) ns > nts

Htoo nanyïghanu gïsii nashnyï nanyïmu ir kuroo dighïnee. Nanyïghau ir taminyoo, duuruunu deeghaga htsyuunyï nar. Suliga rinkinjetsnyï ughir tuughaghuughannu ginsuk da.
[ʰtɔː naɲ̩ɣanu gɿsiː naɕɲ̩ naɲ̩mu iɾ kuɾɔː diɣɿnɛː || naɲ̩ɣau iɾ tamiɲɔː | duːɾuːnu dɛːɣaga ʰtsjuːɲ̩ naɾ || suliga rĩŋkĩɲdʑɛtsɲ̩ uɣiɾ tuːɣaɣuːɣãnnu gĩnsuk da.

Nitpick: shouldn't [toːɣaɣoːɣãnno] yield [tuːɣaɣuːɣãnnu] instead?

(1) Loss of preaspiration
(2) Intervocalic [ɣ] > [j] or [w], conditioned by surrounding vowels; [ɲ̩] > [j], [ɲ̩ɣ] > [jj] — where the [j] is intervocalic or terminal, > [i]
(2.1) [wu] > [u], the first [j] in geminate [jj] is absorbed into the preceding vowel, changing its pronunciation, [aj] > [ɛ]
(2.2) [jɿ] > [i], elsewhere [ɿ] > [u]
(2.3) consonant + [i j] > palatalisation, [ts(j) k] > [cɕ], [s] > [ɕ], [g] > [dʑ
(3) Chain shift, unstressed long vowels become short, and diphthongs are smoothed into long vowels

[tɔː nɛjanu guɕi naɕi naimu iɾ kuɾɔː diːnɛ
nɛjɔː iɾ tamijɔ | duɾuːnu dɛjaga cɕyː naɾ
suliga rĩŋcɕĩɟʑɛcɕi uwiɾ tuːwa.uwãnnu ɟʑĩnsuk da]

Tô neyanu gushi nashi naimu ir kurô dîne.
Neyô ir tamiyo, durûnu deyaga chiû nar
Suliga ringchĩjechi uwir tûwa uwãnnu jĩnsuk da.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:07 pm [tɔː nɛjanu guɕi naɕi naimu iɾ kuɾɔː diːnɛ
nɛjɔː iɾ tamijɔ | duɾuːnu dɛjaga cɕyː naɾ
suliga rĩŋcɕĩɟʑɛcɕi uwiɾ tuːwa.uwãnnu ɟʑĩnsuk da]

Tô neyanu gushi nashi naimu ir kurô dîne.
Neyô ir tamiyo, durûnu deyaga chiû nar
Suliga ringchĩjechi uwir tûwa uwãnnu jĩnsuk da.

1. w > v
2. y > i
3. t d > ts dz before i u
4. u fronted by i in next syll, recreating y
5. final short vowels lost
6. ij > i:
7. j > ʑ

[tɔː nɛʑan gyɕ naɕ naim iɾ kuɾɔː dziːn
nɛʑɔː iɾ tami: | dzuɾuːn dɛʑag cɕiː naɾ
sylig rĩŋcɕĩɟʑɛcɕ uviɾ tsuːv uwãnn ɟʑĩnsuk da]

Tô nezhan güsh nash naim ir kurô dzîn.
Nezhô ir tamî, dzurûn dezhag chî nar
Sülig rinchijech üvir tsûv uvann jinsuk da.

Why is it that we keep on ending up with /y/, alveolopalatals and nasal vowels‽ Surely we aren’t that uncreative. Let me correct the situation…

Yalensky wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:33 pm [tɔː nɛʑan gyɕ naɕ naim iɾ kuɾɔː dziːn
nɛʑɔː iɾ tami: | dzuɾuːn dɛʑag cɕiː naɾ
sylig rĩŋcɕĩɟʑɛcɕ uviɾ tsuːv uwãnn ɟʑĩnsuk da]

Tô nezhan güsh nash naim ir kurô dzîn.
Nezhô ir tamî, dzurûn dezhag chî nar
Sülig rinchijech üvir tsûv uvann jinsuk da.

1. cɕ ɕ ɟʑ ʑ → j
2. ɔː iː uː → ɔwu ijə uwə; ai → aji
3. ɛ ɔ y → e o i
4. ij ji → i, but ijV Vji remain unchanged
5. ɾ → ʔ / word-finally
6. vowels denasalise

[towu nejan gi naj najim iʔ kuɾowu dzijən
nejowu iʔ tamijə | dzuɾuwən dejag ijə naʔ
silig riŋijej uviʔ tsuwəv uwann insuk da]

Towu neyan gi nay nayim iʔ kurowu dziyən.
Neyowu iʔ tamiyə, dzuruwən deyag iyə naʔ.
Silig řiŋiyey uviʔ tsuwəv uwann insuk da.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:09 am Why is it that we keep on ending up with /y/, alveolopalatals and nasal vowels‽ Surely we aren’t that uncreative. Let me correct the situation…
....
[towu nejan gi naj najim iʔ kuɾowu dzijən
nejowu iʔ tamijə | dzuɾuwən dejag ijə naʔ
silig riŋijej uviʔ tsuwəv uwann insuk da]

Towu neyan gi nay nayim iʔ kurowu dziyən.
Neyowu iʔ tamiyə, dzuruwən deyag iyə naʔ.
Silig řiŋiyey uviʔ tsuwəv uwann insuk da.

Now this is something I can work with!

(1) Development of a stress accent placed universally on the initial syllable of a disyllable, and the penult or last heavy syllable of a longer wordl.
(1.1) Now-stressed mid vowels undergo breaking, [o] > [ue], [e] > [ia]
(1.2) Stressed [ə] to [o] after [w], [e] after [j], [a] elsewhere.
(1.3) Apocope of [u] after unstressed pretonic voiceless stops and [s r]
(2.) More palatalisation! [n ŋ] > [ɲ] > [j] > [Ø] after [i]
(2.1) [gi dzi] > [ɟʑi]
(2.2) [jə ja aj] > [e], or [je] postvocalically
(2.3) [aji] > [ei], [uewu] > [ueu]
(2.2) Unstressed initial and posttonic yod fortition, [j] > [ʎ], before [i], [l] > [ʎ]
(3.) Terminal consonant decay, final [n ʔ] deleted, lengthening preceding vowel, final [m] > [n], [g k] > [j w] based on what precedes.
(3.1) smoothing of [ei ej] > [eː]
(3.2) smoothing of remaining [dz] > [z]
(3.3) [v] > [w]

['tueu eʎeː ɟʑi ne neːm iː kɾueu 'ɟʑi.ʎeː
ne'jueu iː ta'miʎe | zuɾ'woː de'ʎeː 'iʎe naː
'si.ʎiː riː'jeː u'wiː tsuou u'waːn in'suː da]

Tueu ellei ji ne neim î krueu jillei.
Nejueu î tamille, zurwou dellei ille nâ.
Sillî rîyéi uwî tsuou uwân insû da.

Starting to feel like some sort of odd Sinitic Romance language. I approve.

Who wants Proto Slavic

My proposal after you decide to stop destroying the beautiful phonology of Japanese

If we're doing Proto Slavic, I'd like to suggest this instead, even though it may be a bit anachronistic:

Prěžde ubo slověne ne jьměhǫ pismenъ, nǫ črъtami i rězami čьtěhǫ i gataahǫ, pogani sǫšče. Krъstivъše že sę rimьskami i grъčьskymi pismeny. Nǫždaahǫ sę slověnsky rěčь bezъ ustroenia…

Zju wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:52 pm If we're doing Proto Slavic, I'd like to suggest this instead, even though it may be a bit anachronistic:

Prěžde ubo slověne ne jьměhǫ pismenъ, nǫ črъtami i rězami čьtěhǫ i gataahǫ, pogani sǫšče. Krъstivъše že sę. Rimьskami i grъčьskymi pismeny. Nǫždaahǫ sę slověnsky rěčь bezъ ustroenia…

Ok.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:44 pm My proposal after you decide to stop destroying the beautiful phonology of Japanese

Hey, I tried to make it pretty again!

A solution to weird sound changes is to "steer" language development in a specific direction. I may for example, give an Anglo Saxon text and say the speakers relocate to the Baltics after 1066 and are therefore in contact mostly with Baltic and Slavic speakers.

This may limit possibilities though. What do you think?

One may also propose certain changes to prosody. Syllabe timed language generally develop in a different way than stress timed ones, the latter having unstressed vowel reduction and deletion, lenition etc. Again this limits ootions though

I think it's more fun just to apply sound and other changes and see what it does.

How do you make Japanese beautiful again?

Apply sound changes that led to modern Japanese or another language you think sounds pretty?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:59 pm Apply sound changes that led to modern Japanese or another language you think sounds pretty?

more like Old Norse perhaps