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Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 9:01 am
by Man in Space
Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:45 am
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:35 am
Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 7:22 pm
One of my longest struggles is with the British spelling
draught. I learned at least forty years ago that it is homophonous with
draft (/dɹæft/ in my dialect), but to this day, when I first see it on the page, my instinct is to pronounce it as /dɹɔt/.
Same.
Same here as well.
I was in my 30s before I learned that /f/ was the correct pronunciation.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:11 pm
by Linguoboy
I don't recall when it was that I discovered that potash is a straightforward compound of pot and ash (a calque of Dutch potas) and pronounced as such. For most of my life, I pronounced it with a long vowel in the first syllable and sometimes with final stress as well.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:47 am
by foxcatdog
now pronounce it like potato
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 6:30 am
by jal
foxcatdog wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:47 amnow pronounce it like potato
You mean potayto or potahto?
JAL
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 10:52 am
by Travis B.
foxcatdog wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:47 am
now pronounce it like potato
I have no idea what you mean here. It is /ˈpɑtˌæʃ/ in GA for the record.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:02 pm
by Travis B.
I for the longest time pronounced velar as /ˈvɛlər/ [ˈvɜːɰʁ̩ˤ(ː)] instead of the correct /ˈviːlər/ [ˈviːɰʁ̩ˤ(ː)], and I have not completely unlearned the former because I still have to remind myself to use the latter.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:11 pm
by Darren
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2024 2:02 pm
I for the longest time pronounced
velar as /ˈvɛlər/ [ˈvɜːɰʁ̩ˤ(ː)] instead of the correct /ˈviːlər/ [ˈviːɰʁ̩ˤ(ː)], and I have not completely unlearned the former because I still have to remind myself to use the latter.
I still do this and see no reason to stop since I never actually say it to people.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 4:01 pm
by Richard W
I too have had the wrong vowel in this word, but in my case /eI/ (XSAMPA) through interference from Latin ve:lum.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 4:43 pm
by Darren
I also say /ælˈvɛi̯ələ/ for no particular reason I can discern.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 2:29 am
by Lērisama
I had /ˌɵˈvɵwlə/¹² in my head for years. I still have to remind myself it's /ˈjɵwˌvjɵlə/³
¹ Interestingly, both varients contain a not-fully reduced vowel in the other root syllable. I'm not sure what to make of this
² Or /ʊˈvuːlə/ if you want to be archaic/more readible
³ Or /ˈjuːvjʊlə/ in the transcription above
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 9:57 am
by Travis B.
For the sake of comparison I have /ælˈviːlər/ [ɛːɤ̯ˈviːɰʁ̩ˤ(ː)] and /ˈjuːvjələr/ [ˈjyːvjəɰʁ̩ˤ(ː)].
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:53 pm
by Glenn
An addition to my earlier post above: I recently re-read the section on Irreanism in Mark’s Religion Construction Kit, which reminded me to be mindful when trying to pronounce Flaidish vowels. In particular, I was reminded that the flaids’ homeland of Flora is pronounced [‘flu.rǝ], rather than like the English “flora” [‘flǝʊ.rǝ, ‘floʊ.rǝ], as is “flora and fauna,” which is still what leaps to my brain when I see the name. (At the same time, I suspect that when Mark first created the name Flora, before the details of Flaidish had been worked out, it may well have been pronounced in the English fashion.)
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 3:08 am
by jal
Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:53 pm(At the same time, I suspect that when Mark first created the name Flora, before the details of Flaidish had been worked out, it may well have been pronounced in the English fashion.)
And of course, there's no reason why you shouldn't pronounce it like English "flora" when talking in English about it. Unless you want to be very pedantic :).
JAL
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 5:50 am
by anteallach
Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:53 pm
like the English “flora” [‘flǝʊ.rǝ, ‘floʊ.rǝ]
Off-topic, but how many English speakers actually have an [ʊ] glide in that context (FORCE vowel before intervocalic /r/)? In RP/SSBE and most similar accents FORCE is merged into THOUGHT, so you get [ɔː]~[oː], not [ǝʊ] or [oʊ], which would suggest GOAT. In some other accents (those without the NORTH-FORCE merger, or some American accents, especially those with THOUGHT merged into LOT) FORCE may be phonemically identified with GOAT, but an [ʊ] glide there feels really alien to me.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 9:23 am
by Raphael
Wait, so the second syllable of "cadre" is actually pronounced "re", not "er"? Wow.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 10:44 am
by Travis B.
anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 5:50 am
Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:53 pm
like the English “flora” [‘flǝʊ.rǝ, ‘floʊ.rǝ]
Off-topic, but how many English speakers actually have an [ʊ] glide in that context (FORCE vowel before intervocalic /r/)? In RP/SSBE and most similar accents FORCE is merged into THOUGHT, so you get [ɔː]~[oː], not [ǝʊ] or [oʊ], which would suggest GOAT. In some other accents (those without the NORTH-FORCE merger, or some American accents, especially those with THOUGHT merged into LOT) FORCE may be phonemically identified with GOAT, but an [ʊ] glide there feels really alien to me.
In GA
flora has [ɔː] (including for
cot-
caught-merged speakers). The same is also true of Inland North-speakers, whose THOUGHT/CLOTH is lowered but whose NORTH/FORCE is not. I don't think I've ever heard anyone pronounce a glide for a rounded mid back vowel before /r/, coda or intervocalic.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:29 am
by Travis B.
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 9:23 am
Wait, so the second syllable of "cadre" is actually pronounced "re", not "er"? Wow.
I am used to /ˈkɑːdreɪ/ (which for me is [kʰaːtʃɻʁe̞ː]) for
cadre myself.
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 12:58 pm
by Lērisama
Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 11:29 am
Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 9:23 am
Wait, so the second syllable of "cadre" is actually pronounced "re", not "er"? Wow.
I am used to /ˈkɑːdreɪ/ (which for me is [kʰaːtʃɻʁe̞ː]) for
cadre myself.
I am used to /ˈkædrə/ [ˈkʰæd͡ʒɹ̠ʷə]. I'm not sure I'd even understand /kɑːdrɛj/ as being the same word at first, though I'd probably get it eventually from context and knowing that Americans prefer to borrow stressed short as as
PALM
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 6:48 pm
by Glenn
anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 5:50 am
Off-topic, but how many English speakers actually have an [ʊ] glide in that context (FORCE vowel before intervocalic /r/)? In RP/SSBE and most similar accents FORCE is merged into THOUGHT, so you get [ɔː]~[oː], not [ǝʊ] or [oʊ], which would suggest GOAT. In some other accents (those without the NORTH-FORCE merger, or some American accents, especially those with THOUGHT merged into LOT) FORCE may be phonemically identified with GOAT, but an [ʊ] glide there feels really alien to me.
On reflection, I don't think that I actually have a [ʊ] glide in that context, but I would describe my vowel in that case as [o:] rather than [ɔː], at least if I am understanding those vowel qualities correctly. If I have a merger of FORCE and THOUGHT in that environment, I would say that it is in the direction of the former rather than the latter.
EDIT: However, I may not in fact be understanding those vowel qualities correctly. For context, I would describe my idiolect as basically GA, but without the
caught-cot merger. I have always been accustomed to thinking of my vowel in
caught/thought as [ɔ] and my vowel in
cot/lot as [ɑ], but on reflection, the former is almost certainly [ɒ] rather than [ɔ]. Either way, my vowel in "Flora" (whether [o:] or [ɔː]) is quite different from my vowel in "thought" ([ɒ]).
Re: Pronunciations you had to unlearn
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2025 7:49 pm
by Travis B.
Glenn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 6:48 pm
anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 5:50 am
Off-topic, but how many English speakers actually have an [ʊ] glide in that context (FORCE vowel before intervocalic /r/)? In RP/SSBE and most similar accents FORCE is merged into THOUGHT, so you get [ɔː]~[oː], not [ǝʊ] or [oʊ], which would suggest GOAT. In some other accents (those without the NORTH-FORCE merger, or some American accents, especially those with THOUGHT merged into LOT) FORCE may be phonemically identified with GOAT, but an [ʊ] glide there feels really alien to me.
On reflection, I don't think that I actually have a [ʊ] glide in that context, but I would describe my vowel in that case as [o:] rather than [ɔː], at least if I am understanding those vowel qualities correctly. If I have a merger of FORCE and THOUGHT in that environment, I would say that it is in the direction of the former rather than the latter.
EDIT: However, I may not in fact be understanding those vowel qualities correctly. For context, I would describe my idiolect as basically GA, but without the
caught-cot merger. I have always been accustomed to thinking of my vowel in
caught/thought as [ɔ] and my vowel in
cot/lot as [ɑ], but on reflection, the former is almost certainly [ɒ] rather than [ɔ]. Either way, my vowel in "Flora" (whether [o:] or [ɔː]) is quite different from my vowel in "thought" ([ɒ]).
I am used to [ɒ(ː)] for THOUGHT/CLOTH and [ɔ(ː)ɹ]~[ɔ(ː)ɻ] (in GA) or [ɔ(ː)ʁˤ] (in my dialect) for NORTH/FORCE, which seems typical for a lot of North Americans even though I speak an Inland North dialect rather than GA.