Zompist Bboard Again

Thank you, zompist.

(I checked it in Wiktionary and found that Schlange and lang actually have no relationship in Etymology. It seems just a coincidence, which I didn't know.)

I happened to pore over the short post (as my language learning), where Travis talked about his dreams. I don't understand the underlined part.

Travis wrote:I have had very few "realistic" dreams that I remembered for long, the primary one being a nightmare clearly inspired by drain backups in my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast turned up to 11.

- to turn up to 11: (idiomatic) to go beyond the maximum possible threshold

Q: Does it mean the real experience of drain backups is turned up to 11 in the nightmare?
..the primary one being a nightmare ... inspired by drain backups ... [which is] turned up to 11.
If so, the relative clause, for me, is so far away from the noun ("nightmare") it refers to. Wouldn't it sound like that the east coast was turn up to 11 for native speakers?

Q: And if so, shouldn't it be
"...in my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast..."
Otherwise I don't understand what "from" is for here.
Or does "from when" mean "since" here?
... a nightmare since I lived on the East Coast.

I must have misunderstand something, right?

azhong wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:28 am

Travis wrote:I have had very few "realistic" dreams that I remembered for long, the primary one being a nightmare clearly inspired by drain backups in my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast turned up to 11.

Q: Does it mean the real experience of drain backups is turned up to 11 in the nightmare?
..the primary one being a nightmare ... inspired by drain backups ... [which is] turned up to 11.
If so, the relative clause, for me, is so far away from the noun ("nightmare") it refers to. Wouldn't it sound like that the east coast was turn up to 11 for native speakers?

I'm neither Travis, nor a native speaker, but "the drain backups turned up to 11" is my default interpretation of this sentence, because the other interpretations don't make sense.

azhong wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:28 am Q: And if so, shouldn't it be
"...in my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast..."
Otherwise I don't understand what "from" is for here.
Or does "from when" mean "since" here?
... a nightmare since I lived on the East Coast.

I must have misunderstand something, right?

From is used for back-referral:
A friend from (my time at) high-school
His diary from World War II
Memories from (the days I spent in) Rome
Any reference to a period or a stage in life can follow after from used that way, including temporal clauses with when:
An injury from [when he used to do karate]
A letter from [when we still were pen pals]
That is also what we have in Travis's sentence:
my old apartment building from [when I lived on the East Coast]

hwhatting wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:34 am

azhong wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:28 am

Travis wrote:I have had very few "realistic" dreams that I remembered for long, the primary one being a nightmare clearly inspired by drain backups in my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast turned up to 11.

Q: Does it mean the real experience of drain backups is turned up to 11 in the nightmare?
..the primary one being a nightmare ... inspired by drain backups ... [which is] turned up to 11.
If so, the relative clause, for me, is so far away from the noun ("nightmare") it refers to. Wouldn't it sound like that the east coast was turn up to 11 for native speakers?

I'm neither Travis, nor a native speaker, but "the drain backups turned up to 11" is my default interpretation of this sentence, because the other interpretations don't make sense.

I’m a native speaker, and I agree.

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:14 am

hwhatting wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:34 am

azhong wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:28 am

Q: Does it mean the real experience of drain backups is turned up to 11 in the nightmare?
..the primary one being a nightmare ... inspired by drain backups ... [which is] turned up to 11.
If so, the relative clause, for me, is so far away from the noun ("nightmare") it refers to. Wouldn't it sound like that the east coast was turn up to 11 for native speakers?

I'm neither Travis, nor a native speaker, but "the drain backups turned up to 11" is my default interpretation of this sentence, because the other interpretations don't make sense.

I’m a native speaker, and I agree.

Yes, that was my intention when I wrote that.

Q: since vs from (the time) when
Are my understandings correct? Thank you.
I have known him since I was in highschool.
I knew him from (the time) when I was in highschool.

The nightmare has been since I lived in NY city.(It still remains.)
The nightmare is from (the time) when I lived in NY City. (We don't know if the nightmare still remains just based on this statement.)

azhong wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:28 pm Q: since vs from (the time) when
Are my understandings correct? Thank you.
I have known him since I was in highschool.
I knew him from (the time) when I was in highschool.

The above is correct: "since" implies continuous time (you've kept in touch with the guy).

The nightmare has been since I lived in NY city.

But this doesn't work. Most colloquial: "I've had this nightmare as long as I've lived in New York." Or "...ever since I moved to New York." Or "This nightmare has been happening all the time I've lived in New York."

Q: Is there any possible differences in meanings between
"It's inspired by my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast"
and, without from,
"It's inspired by my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast"

Are my understandings correct? Thank you.

I've had this dream since I lived in NY city.
- The dream remains, and I don't live in NY any more.
This nightmare has been happening all the time I've lived in New York.
- The dream remains, and I am still living in NY.
I've had this dream as long as I've lived in New York.
- The dream remains, and I am still living in NY. Furthermore, I think it will continue if I don't leave NY.
I've had this dream ever since I moved to New York.
- The dream remains, and we don't know if the speaker is still living in NY just basing on the statement.

azhong wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:39 pm Q: Is there any possible differences in meanings between
"It's inspired by my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast"
and, without from,
"It's inspired by my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast"

Bottom is simply ungrammatical.

Okay, I've got my blind point about this unfamiliar "from".

It was inspired by my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast".
-It was inspired at the time when I lived there.

It is inspired by my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast"
- It's inspired by the building where I lived when I lived on the East Coast.

Thank you all.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:31 am

azhong wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:39 pm Q: Is there any possible differences in meanings between
"It's inspired by my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast"
and, without from,
"It's inspired by my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast"

Bottom is simply ungrammatical.

Disagree.

Is "my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast" ungrammatical for you in any context or just this one? Could you say "My old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast was condemned so I moved out here", for instance?

To me that usage of when sounds rather off — I would normally use from when here. And it is not just this usage, but other usages like:

That was my computer from when I worked at NASA.

versus

*That was my computer when I worked at NASA.

Basically, when by itself for me cannot start relative clauses qualifying nouns — rather, from when has to be used.

I retract my statement to agree with linguoboy its ungramattical in isolation but when used with another clause its fine.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 6:36 pm I retract my statement to agree with linguoboy its ungramattical in isolation but when used with another clause its fine.

For me the key thing is what when qualifies — there is no problem with it qualifying another clause, as in My computer combusted when I fed wall current into the Ethernet port.

To make sure, Linguoboy and Travis disagree to each other on a particular usage of "when".
And I think sentence (1) I made agrees grammatically with sentence (2) Linguoboy made?

1) It was inspired by my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast".
2) My old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast was condemned...

azhong wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:13 pm To make sure, Linguoboy and Travis disagree to each other on a particular usage of "when".
And I think sentence (1) I made agrees grammatically with sentence (2) Linguoboy made?

1) It was inspired by my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast".
2) My old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast was condemned...

Both would require a from for me. But something like "I worked as an accountant when i lived on the east coast" is grammatical and would be ungramatical with a from.

Okay, and thank you. So you basically agree with Travis? I.e.,
A clause + when
A noun phrase + from when, but not
*A noun phrase + when

azhong wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:13 pm To make sure, Linguoboy and Travis disagree to each other on a particular usage of "when".
And I think sentence (1) I made agrees grammatically with sentence (2) Linguoboy made?

1) It was inspired by my old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast".

This implies that the inspiration happened while you were living on the East Coast.

2) My old apartment building when I lived on the East Coast was condemned...

I would not put this in this order. More naturally, I think it would be, "When I lived on the East Coast, my old apartment building was condemned" (this implies you were living in it while it was condemned), or "When I lived on the East Coast, my old apartment building got condemned" (presumably because the City found an egregious code violation and condemned it).

Other notes:

For me, both "That was my computer from when I worked at NASA" and "That was my computer when I worked at NASA" are grammatical, but mean slightly different things in a way I'm not totally sure how to articulate. The former might be more readily followed by a statement noting some difference ("That was my computer from when I worked at NASA that was all buggy, this one is different"), as opposed to "That (one we just passed) was my computer when I worked at NASA (not somebody else's)".

For "It's inspired by my old apartment building from when I lived on the East Coast", adding a pause (orthographically indicated with a comma) makes this sound better "It's inspired by my old apartment building, from when I lived on the East Coast" (which makes it sound like you're specifying a detail that you've realised is unclear), or "It's inspired by the apartment building where I lived when I was on the East Coast" (I usually would say, "It was inspired", incidentally, but "It's inspired" isn't incorrect or unidiomatic).

azhong wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:29 pm *A noun phrase + when

I'd wager that most speakers accept this if the NP is a time word: I miss the times when I played D&D.