Zompist Bboard Again

So... Nort, Did you transliterate a Russian(?) recipe in a transliteration incorporating the idea of rotation to represent phonemic contrasts...?

I don't know Russian, but I recognise potatoes and tomatoes...

Edit: wait, it's gardening instructions, right?

sasasha wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:07 pm So... Nort, Did you transliterate a Russian(?) recipe in a transliteration incorporating the idea of rotation to represent phonemic contrasts...?

I don't know Russian, but I recognise potatoes and tomatoes...

Edit: wait, it's gardening instructions, right?

Snippet from the Russian Wikipedia page for 'potato'.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:32 pm That looks Slavic to me, but I'm not sure if it's Russian per se (those <w>s appear non-Russian to me).

<w> /v/ because <v> /n/ (nu) because <n> /ʲu/

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:00 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:32 pm That looks Slavic to me, but I'm not sure if it's Russian per se (those <w>s appear non-Russian to me).

<w> /v/ because <v> /n/ (nu) because <n> /ʲu/

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:11 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:00 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 12:32 pm That looks Slavic to me, but I'm not sure if it's Russian per se (those <w>s appear non-Russian to me).

<w> /v/ because <v> /n/ (nu) because <n> /ʲu/

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

клубень
klȣbeu

Органические кислоты обусловливают кислотность клеточного сока картофеля.
Ɔrgani𝼃eskie kislɔtᴉ ɔbȣslɔvlivaጾt kislɔtnɔsʇ kletɔ𝼃nɔgɔ sɔka kartɔfelɐ.

Better?

Doesn't work as well for Irish:

Ʌī ƨē yᵷ afyrk ymax as y vᴉuc̄g nȣyɹ y ʌī ɯiƨy gɔl hart. Иī əʞʎʇ ƨē pyȣl ɥɹī p̄ɹēɯɹʎ. Tā ɯē ɟlɔx hɹīp̄ ys hɹīp̄.

Tseerkav mij siidâst ᴉlleäm. Ƨkɔɔȣl leäi de tɔ̃n-i c̰nne tseerkven ʞnɐ̤ss papp puätt. Tseerkav leäi tɔb Risttʞ̭əəddest. Ʇcben ſ̣ɐ̥tte kȣ ɯəəst ᴉlleäm tseerkav. Papp ʞnɐ̤ss pȣätt d̠c̰c̰zzid ꞁəbe veänttsɔ̃ɔ̃ttâm diɔ̃tt kåčča de ƨkɔɔȣlâst-i c̰nne. Ʇcsʇ leäi ɐte ƨkɔɔȣlâst tuâggd̠əɐ̤ꞁuu zɐ̤ɐ̤vesǩ pijjum ʞc̰sǩǩe.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:21 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:11 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:00 pm
<w> /v/ because <v> /n/ (nu) because <n> /ʲu/

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

клубень
klȣbeu

Органические кислоты обусловливают кислотность клеточного сока картофеля.
Ɔrgani𝼃eskie kislɔtᴉ ɔbȣslɔvlivaጾt kislɔtnɔsʇ kletɔ𝼃nɔgɔ sɔka kartɔfelɐ.

Better?

Not by much, no.

*p *t *tʲ *k
*t͡s *t͡sʲ
*(f) *s *sʲ *ʃ
*ɬ *lʲ *ɾ
*m *n *nʲ

*i *u
*e *o
*ɛ *ɔ
*a

All vowels distinguished 3 degrees of length although mid long high vowels only occurred in Amarin loanwoards. In unstressed (non-initial) syllables they only distinguished two.

*p and *f are mainly in complementary distribution with *f occurring word initially and *p otherwise. This is the case except in some onomatopoeia.

CVC syllable structure maximally

*ɛ:mɛɾin “Amarin”, *kutɛna “person”, *sɔli “fish”, *nɛrɛi “sky”, *t͡sʲuna “soul”, *ta:pa “idol”, *tɛ:nɛ “sea” *sɛ::wi “skunk”, *enta “to dance”, *kuɾi “shaman”, *fat͡san “doctor, *folʲi “city”, *pɔkɔ “human”, *ʃensiwi “ice”, *tuki “sound”, *ta:jalʲa “salmon”, *miʲta “seamstress”, *ɛ:na “daughter”, *ɬuwɛn “son”, *kappa “ship”, *t͡sʲana “to go”, *nʲenʲe “wing”, *kilsi “star”, *mira “soul”, *a:na “mother”, *na:kasi “father”, *ku::ma “to beget”, *ka::si “snake”, *ko::na “blue”, *su::pi “to exceed”, *tʲi::nʲsʲi “drum”

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:10 am Atrocity.txt

(^:

I have to confess, this is the absolute worst romanisation possible for Russian, no contest. My brain is bleeding.

I mean, fricken Polish orthography with no alterations would look better:

W pustynie czachłoj i skupoj, na poczwie, znojem raskalennoj, anczar, kak groznyj czasovoj, stoit - odin wo wsiej wsielennoj. Priroda strażduszczich stiepiej jego w dień gniewa porodiła, i zieleń miortwuju wietwiej i korni jadom napoiła.

Miagkij, twiordyj, wnosiaszczij, wjuszczajasia


Now compare it to my own romanisation for Russian:

V pusṭine čahloj i skupoj, na počve, znojem raskalennoj, ančar, kak groznyj časovoj, stoit - odin vo vsej vselennoj. Priroda straždus̬ih stepej jeɡo v deṅ ɡneva porodila, i zeleṅ ṁortvuju vetvej i korni jadom napoila.

ṁaɡkij, tv̇orḍij, vnoṡas̬ij, vjus̬ajaṡa

I think Nortaneous wins the prize for worst IE-lang orthography ever.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:20 pm I think Nortaneous wins the prize for worst IE-lang orthography ever.

Ahead of the inventor of English orthography?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:21 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:20 pm I think Nortaneous wins the prize for worst IE-lang orthography ever.

Ahead of the inventor of English orthography?

Yes.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:22 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:21 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:20 pm I think Nortaneous wins the prize for worst IE-lang orthography ever.

Ahead of the inventor of English orthography?

Yes.

But I think English orthography is not far behind, and Danish orthography is not far behind that.

Amarin
/*p *t *tʲ *k/
<f/p t j k>
*t͡s *t͡sʲ
<c q>
*(f) *s *sʲ *ʃ
<f s c x>
*ɬ *lʲ *ɾ
<h l r>
*m *n *nʲ
<m n ñ>

*i *u
<y w>
*e *o
<i u>
*ɛ *ɔ
<e o>
*a
<a>

/o oː oːː/
<o ō o͞o

So /p/ occurs initially sometimes? In that case use <p> initially. Does /f/ occur non-finally?

Ēmeryn “Amarin”, kwtena “person”, soly “fish”, nerey “sky”, qwna “soul”, tāfa “idol”, tēne “sea” se͞e?y (there's not supposed to be any /w/) “skunk”, inta “to dance”, kwry “shaman”, facan “doctor, fuly “city”, polo “human”, xinsy?y “ice”, twky “sound”, tā?ala (there's not supposed to be any /j/ either) “salmon”, myja “seamstress”, ēna “daughter”, hy?in “son”, kaffa “ship”, qana “to go”, ñiñi “wing”, kylsy “star”, myra “soul”, āna “mother”, nākasy “father”, kw͞wma “to beget”, ka͞asy “snake”, ku͞una “blue”, sw͞wfy “to exceed”, qy͞yñcy “drum”

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:22 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:21 pm

Ahead of the inventor of English orthography?

Yes.

But I think English orthography is not far behind, and Danish orthography is not far behind that.

Really? Danish? I’ve never heard that on the list of bad orthographies. (The worse ones I’ve seen so far are English, French, Irish and Tibetan.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:53 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:22 pm

Yes.

But I think English orthography is not far behind, and Danish orthography is not far behind that.

Really? Danish? I’ve never heard that on the list of bad orthographies. (The worse ones I’ve seen so far are English, French, Irish and Tibetan.)

Okay, when writing that I forgot about Irish. As for French, from what I've heard and observed, it is bad one-way, i.e. it is hard to know how to spell a word upon hearing it, but it is easier to get the pronunciation from the spelling. As for Tibetan, it's awful, but it's not IE.

Here's my try at Amarin:

*p *t *tʲ *k
p t c k
*t͡s *t͡sʲ
tz ts
*(f) *s *sʲ *ʃ
f z s x
*ɬ *lʲ *ɾ
h l r
*m *n *nʲ
m n ñ

vowels the same as Qwynegold's:

*i *u
y w
*e *o
i u
*ɛ *ɔ
e o
*a
a

acute accent for long vowels, doubling for overlong

émeryn “Amarin”, kwtena “person”, zoly “fish”, nerey “sky”, tswna “soul”, tápa “idol”, téne “sea” zeewy “skunk”, inta “to dance”, kwry “shaman”, fatzan “doctor”, fuly “city”, poko “human”, xinzywy “ice”, twky “sound”, táyala “salmon”, myca “seamstress”, éna “daughter”, hwen “son”, kappa “ship”, tsana “to go”, ñiñi “wing”, kylzy “star”, myra “soul”, ána “mother”, nákazy “father”, kwwma “to beget”, kaazy “snake”, kuuna “blue”, zwwpy “to exceed”, cyyñsy “drum”

What would the difference between tswna and myra be?

*p *t *tʲ *k ⟨p t tj k⟩
*t͡s *t͡sʲ ⟨c cj⟩
*(f) *s *sʲ *ʃ ⟨f s sj x⟩
*ɬ *lʲ *ɾ ⟨l lj r⟩
*m *n *nʲ ⟨m n nj⟩
*w *j ⟨w j⟩

*i *u ⟨i u⟩ *i: *u: ⟨í ú⟩ *i:: *u:: ⟨î û⟩
*e *o ⟨è ò⟩ *e: *o: ⟨ē ō⟩ *e:: *o:: ⟨ě ǒ⟩
*ɛ *ɔ ⟨e o⟩ *ɛ: *ɔ: ⟨é ó⟩ *ɛ:: *ɔ:: ⟨ê ô⟩
*a ⟨a⟩ *a: ⟨á⟩ *a:: ⟨â⟩

*ɛ:mɛɾin “Amarin” ⟨émerin⟩, *kutɛna “person” ⟨kutena⟩, *sɔli “fish” ⟨soli⟩, *nɛrɛi “sky” ⟨nerei⟩, *t͡sʲuna “soul” ⟨cjuna⟩, *ta:pa “idol” ⟨tápa⟩, *tɛ:nɛ “sea” ⟨téne⟩ *sɛ::wi “skunk” ⟨sêwi⟩, *enta “to dance” ⟨ènta⟩, *kuɾi “shaman” ⟨kuri⟩, *fat͡san “doctor" ⟨facan⟩, *folʲi “city” ⟨folji⟩, *pɔkɔ “human” ⟨poko⟩, *ʃensiwi “ice” ⟨xènsiwi⟩, *tuki “sound” ⟨tuki⟩, *ta:jalʲa “salmon” ⟨tájalja⟩, *miʲta “seamstress” ⟨mitja⟩, *ɛ:na “daughter” ⟨éna⟩, *ɬuwɛn “son” ⟨luwen⟩, *kappa “ship” ⟨kappa⟩, *t͡sʲana “to go” ⟨cjana⟩, *nʲenʲe “wing” ⟨njènjè⟩, *kilsi “star” ⟨kilsi⟩, *mira “soul” ⟨mira⟩, *a:na “mother” ⟨ána⟩, *na:kasi “father” ⟨nákasi⟩, *ku::ma “to beget” ⟨kûma⟩, *ka::si “snake” ⟨kâsi⟩, *ko::na “blue” ⟨kôna⟩, *su::pi “to exceed” ⟨sûpi⟩, *tʲi::nʲsʲi “drum” ⟨tjînjsji⟩

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:20 pm I think Nortaneous wins the prize for worst IE-lang orthography ever.

holꝺ mıȝ béoꞃ

Þͤ pbɐ̥tatå ꝭ ɑ̨́ ꞅꞇɑꞃchıȝ ƿꞃꝏꞇ vegətɐbᴉlḥ nātīuɐ 2 þͤ Ɐmericɐs þͭ ꝭ ꝯſũəd ælꞅƿ ɑ̨́ ſtapn̯lɐ ꝼꝏ́ꝺ ı̨ mɑ̨ıȝ ꝑtəs ꝼͦ þͤ ƿoꞃəlꝺ. Pbɐ̥tatåəs eɑꞃǫ tūƀs ꝼͦ þͤ plãt Solãũ tūbəꝛoſũ, ɑ̨́ ꝑeñ̇ɐlɐ ı̨ þͤ nıȝhꞇꞅháꝺ faṁl̇ȝ Solãaceæ. Ƿı́lꝺ pbåtatå ſpeċes cɑ̨n bͤ ꝼȣ̨́ꝺ ꝼx þͤ ꞅȣðəꞃnə Ṽ̇təd StⅧs 2 ꞅȣðəꞃnə Cḣle. Þͤ pbɐ̥tatå ƿᴂꞅ oꝛ̇ġ̃ɐꝇiȝ bͤlıͤ́uəꝺ 2 hɑf̣ b̨ͤ eſṫcⅧəd bí NⅧ̇uᴉ Ɐmericɐ̰s ĩdəpẽdə̃tliȝ ı̨ xiplᴂ locāṫõəs, bəȣ̆ꞇ l8əꞃ γενετικά ſtudiɐ's ꞇꞃáꝢəd ɑ̨́ ſĩꟑn̯lɐ oꝛ̇ġ̃, ı̨ þͤ āreɐ ꝼͦ ꝕſẽtꝭ̈-ꝺæȝ ꞅȣðəꞃnə Ꝑū ⁊ əxtrēmɐ noꞃþƿeꞅꞇərnn̯ liuiɐ.

Rm kül iṃkṃ voṃteṃ im̐ s̆ᵛr̈g. Vs̆t Sṃpeyṃ ddos suci. Sjmṃ Sṃpeyṃ rvuh. Kr̈s̈ Sṃpeyṃ ddos yiṃ bumi kdos̈ im̐ s̆ᵛr̈g. Rejeki kül km̐ sdiṃteṃ-diṃteṃ sukni diṃteṃ puniki mrim̐ kül. ʔṃbi puṃtṃ mrim̐ kül dos kül, kdos̈ kül puṃtṃ mrim̐ stuṃgil̈-tuṃgil̈ tiym̐ km̐ slḥ mrim̐ kül. ʔmi sṃpuṃ bek̈t kül im̐ per̈cobṃ. Tpi cuculkeṃ kül bri pd sm̐ ʔvoṃ. Sbb̈ sjmn ʔṃbi kovs sr̈t kmuk̈teṃ Gus̈ti kguŋnipuṃ dumugi im̐ ʔveẗ.

/pa ta tʃa ka/ <ȹ x ç k>
/pe te tʃe ke/ <w t ꜩ ꜭ>
/pi ti tʃi ki/ <p ƚ c g>
/po to tʃo ko/ <ꜿ z ꝿ ꝯ>
/pu tu tʃu ku/ <b d ꟁ q>

/f s x/ <f s j>
/m n ɲ/ <m n v>
/l ʝ/ <l y>
/ɾ r/ <r ꞃ>

/-n -l -r -s/ <ṽ v̠ ṿ v̈>

Lö ꞃisomä wresẽx̃ una sona merïxmaƚk suȹpk̠, t zt se orijinã lö tubẹqlö meƚãt ũ ẽꝯrosamiẽz ꞃaƚa̠, ꜿrodꝯz t̠ alạkmiẽz t lä selulä ȹrẽgmaƚk̈ i la ẉƚx t la ꜿlarixx t lä mïmä. Drãt la fọmasiõ t̠ dẉqlo, e̠ ꜭresimiẽz lõjidƚna̠ de̠ ëzlõ se tƚene i lä selulä ȹrẽgmaƚq̈ t la ꝯ̣tsa, t la medla i t ꞃejionë wrimedlarë sufrẽ ƚpsionë i alạkmiẽz.