Zompist Bboard Again

Because it is that time of the year again, and to avoid engaging in necromancy, here is a new thread for the perennial topic of H/æ/lloween versus H/ɑː/lloween.

The former.

/haləwɪjn/, of course.

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Less flippantly, it is definitely TRAP here, and a back vowel sounds American to my (British) ears*. Although our TRAP is lower and backer than yours, so they sound quite similar. Or in short, what Raphael said

* I'm not sure what phoneme it would even be if it appeared over here. PALM/START(/BATH) is long, LOT is back, rounded and raised, and has no tradition of being used for ⟨a⟩, or to represent foreign low vowels, aside from it sounding very wrong to be here. CUT is probably accoustically closest, but that (again) sounds very wrong

Both are acceptable variations to me. If anything, the version with /ɑ:/ sounds less American, but not completely unheard where I'm living in Idaho.

I've always pronounced it the latter. I feel like the dark /l/ draws the initial vowel back.

Personally I have /ɑː/ phonemically but [aː] phonetically. I've heard my dad pronounce it with /æ/ phonemically and [ɛː] phonetically, but the open-mid front vowel just sounds off to my ears (even though I have it in aloe, tallow, fallow, callow, and sallow and it doesn't sound weird to me there).

/halowin/. Same vowel as in hollow, holler; definitely not the same as in hall, haul or hallow, Hal.

/ɑ ~ a/, never /æ/ (i do hear the latter sometimes but it's definitely less common than the former around here)

Most people here in Germany say ['hælowi:n], but apparently, they are just wrong

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:28 pm Most people here in Germany say ['hælowi:n], but apparently, they are just wrong

I actually think that the /æ/ pronunciation is the traditional one, as Halloween is derived from hallow, which normally takes /æ/.

I pronounce "Halloween" like in "hallow". The other pronunciation may have originated by analogy with "hollow", although the word "Halloween" has no etymological relation to "hollow".

Of course, being the phonological oddball I am, my actual pronunciation of Halloween in everyday speech is [ˈhaːwːĩ(ː)n].

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:28 pm Most people here in Germany say ['hælowi:n], but apparently, they are just wrong

Well, most German people I know say ['hɛlovi:n], because they have trouble with [æ] and [w].

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 5:28 pm Most people here in Germany say ['hælowi:n], but apparently, they are just wrong

Ironically, that phonologically matches the British pronunciation, but is phonetically closer to American (or very old-fashioned Bristish) pronounciation of that vowel

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:35 pm I pronounce "Halloween" like in "hallow". The other pronunciation may have originated by analogy with "hollow", although the word "Halloween" has no etymological relation to "hollow".

In cot-caught merged varieties, it may also result from spelling influence. "Hall o ween"

Space60 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:42 am

Space60 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 7:35 pm I pronounce "Halloween" like in "hallow". The other pronunciation may have originated by analogy with "hollow", although the word "Halloween" has no etymological relation to "hollow".

In cot-caught merged varieties, it may also result from spelling influence. "Hall o ween"

The dialect here isn't cot-caught merged. My suspicion is that the [w] in Halloween exhibits a retracting influence at a distance. (In the dialect here /oʊ/ [o̞] cannot occur before another vowel in the same word except if another consonant was elided in between -- normally [w] is inserted in between except in cases of elision.) This is amplified by pronunciations like my own where the /loʊ/ assimilates to the [w] to give [wː].

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:31 amThe former.

OK, on second thoughts, I'm not at all sure what precise vowel I use in the first syllable; all I know for sure is that it's not /a:/. Or any long vowel.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 11:04 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 10:31 amThe former.

OK, on second thoughts, I'm not at all sure what precise vowel I use in the first syllable; all I know for sure is that it's not /a:/. Or any long vowel.

The vowel length I specified is just part of conventional English phonemic notation. Many English varieties, especially NAE varieties but also ones such as Scottish Standard English, have lost phonemic vowel length, leaving only vowel length allophony. (Some varieties such as my own could be argued to have reintroduced phonemic vowel length, but to me that would only be the case for naive, shallow analyses; there is good reason to argue that vowel length is still allophonic given deep analyses of at least my own dialect..)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 11:14 am
The vowel length I specified is just part of conventional English phonemic notation. Many English dialects, especially NAE dialects but also ones such as Scottish Standard English, have lost phonemic vowel length, leaving only vowel length allophony. (Some varieties such as my own could be argued to have reintroduced phonemic vowel length, but to me that would only be the case for naive, shallow analyses; there is good reason to argue that vowel length is still allophonic given deep analyses of at least my own dialect..)

Interesting. I would have thought the main difference between the BATH vowel and the BUT vowel was length.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 11:19 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 11:14 am
The vowel length I specified is just part of conventional English phonemic notation. Many English dialects, especially NAE dialects but also ones such as Scottish Standard English, have lost phonemic vowel length, leaving only vowel length allophony. (Some varieties such as my own could be argued to have reintroduced phonemic vowel length, but to me that would only be the case for naive, shallow analyses; there is good reason to argue that vowel length is still allophonic given deep analyses of at least my own dialect..)

Interesting. I would have thought the main difference between the BATH vowel and the BUT vowel was length.

Depends on the variety. In many varieties STRUT is a (short, when phonemic) unrounded near-open central vowel and PALM is a (long, when phonemic) unrounded (or in CanE, rounded) open back vowel, as is BATH when it is not the same as TRAP. In my own variety, like other Inland North varieties, STRUT is an unrounded open-mid back vowel, PALM is an unrounded open central or front vowel, and BATH is the same as TRAP (i.e. an unrounded open-mid vowel prone to diphthongization, particularly before nasals). The system that you describe, where STRUT differs from BATH and PALM primarily by vowel length is typical of AusE, where both are unrounded open or near-open central vowels which differ primarily in length.