Zompist Bboard Again

I think a thread about these things is a good idea.

I wanted to avoid having separate threads about non political and political philosophy - so here you can discuss both.

I wanted to also add religion but I don't know if it is a good idea as it might make the discussion too broad.

So... Pick up whatever you want to discuss first.

https://www.e-flux.com/journal/65/33634 ... ist-class/

I once had an idea for a hyperfuturistic society with 3 loose classes: vectors, hackers and theokineticists (artists and priests). I also had an associated sacred text called The Book of Masks. Sample:

Chapter 19: The Weight of the Mask

Every mask has weight.
Some are as light as a breeze,
almost imperceptible on the cheek.
Others are as heavy as a rock,
carving a groove in the soul.
The mask of joy is light at first,
but becomes heavier after a long time.
The mask of sadness is heavy at first,
but softens over time,
becoming a second skin.
It is not the mask itself that makes it heavy, but the fear of taking it off.
Because taking off the mask
is standing naked before the unknown.
Some masks you choose voluntarily,
but others are forced upon you.
The mask of duty,
the mask of tradition,
the mask of power—
each has a burden.
Do not hate the weight of your mask.
It shaped you, strengthened you,
taught you how to rise from the weight.
But don't forget that the mask is not you.
It is not your slave,
and it is not your master.
There comes a time when the mask must be taken off. Let its weight fall,
even if only for a moment.
In that moment,
you will feel the wind on your bare face.
It may hurt;
it may hurt.
But it will remind you
that you are more than what you wear.
The wise do not cling to one mask.
They change it with the times,
accepting the weight of each one,
but never letting it become a prison.
Wearing a mask is living a story.
When the story is over,
the mask will fall off on its own.
Do not hold on to it any tighter than it holds you.
Even the world has a mask of burden:
mountains rise and fall,
rivers carve valleys,
and in the sky, clouds shift.
But beneath it all,
the world remains whole,
unchanged by any clothing.
You too are whole under the weight.
The mask does not diminish you;
instead, it challenges you.
It teaches you to ask:
“How strong are you?
How much weight can you bear?
And do you know when to let it go?”
Wear the mask with dignity,
but do not forget the face behind it.
Because the weight of the mask
is not permanent.

I need more tinkering time.

Is there a way to explain what "vectors" and "hackers" are in plain terms intelligible to a non-philosopher and non-economist like me? I found your write-up rather impenetrable.

Gentlemen, what are your thoughts on Confucianism? I ask here since it's mostly a philosophy with religious elements.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2025 1:52 pm Gentlemen, what are your thoughts on Confucianism? I ask here since it's mostly a philosophy with religious elements.

Confucianism is authoritarianism. Your social superiors have complete authority over you. They are supposed to be benevolent towards you. However, there are no checks on their caprice other than exhorting them to humanity through culture and sage advice. They thought this is realistic because, according to Chinese mythology, an age like this existed in the past.

PS. They also opposed all innovation because they were paranoid about cultural changes harming human values.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2025 8:32 am Is there a way to explain what "vectors" and "hackers" are in plain terms intelligible to a non-philosopher and non-economist like me? I found your write-up rather impenetrable.

Vectors are financiers. Hackers are white collar workers. The writeup argues that financiers have power over owners of industrial capital because they can pick whom to finance.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 1:14 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2025 8:32 am Is there a way to explain what "vectors" and "hackers" are in plain terms intelligible to a non-philosopher and non-economist like me? I found your write-up rather impenetrable.

Vectors are financiers. Hackers are white collar workers. The writeup argues that financiers have power over owners of industrial capital because they can pick whom to finance.

Thank you, I understand now.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 1:11 pm They thought this is realistic because, according to Chinese mythology, an age like this existed in the past.

PS. They also opposed all innovation because they were paranoid about cultural changes harming human values.

But if the Golden Age was in the past, then don't we want to advance back to that level?

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 1:11 pm

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2025 1:52 pm Gentlemen, what are your thoughts on Confucianism? I ask here since it's mostly a philosophy with religious elements.

Confucianism is authoritarianism. Your social superiors have complete authority over you. They are supposed to be benevolent towards you. However, there are no checks on their caprice other than exhorting them to humanity through culture and sage advice. They thought this is realistic because, according to Chinese mythology, an age like this existed in the past.

PS. They also opposed all innovation because they were paranoid about cultural changes harming human values.

I wouldn't be so harsh on it personally - Confucianism, like Marxism and other philosophies, can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Even if only one was predominant historically, others can exist.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:48 am

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 1:11 pm Confucianism is authoritarianism. Your social superiors have complete authority over you. They are supposed to be benevolent towards you. However, there are no checks on their caprice other than exhorting them to humanity through culture and sage advice. They thought this is realistic because, according to Chinese mythology, an age like this existed in the past.

PS. They also opposed all innovation because they were paranoid about cultural changes harming human values.

I wouldn't be so harsh on it personally - Confucianism, like Marxism and other philosophies, can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Even if only one was predominant historically, others can exist.

As a very general statement, I pretty much agree with rotting bones. Confucius is personally interesting, precisely because he never had any power, but Confucianism is more or less benevolent conservatism, and like all conservatisms it never takes the benevolence very far. The Neo-Confucians can be blamed for the dampening of Chinese innovation after the Tang/Song.

Within Chinese tradition there are far more interesting philosophers— Laozi, Zhuangzi, Mozi, the originators of Zen, etc.

Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:48 am I wouldn't be so harsh on it personally - Confucianism, like Marxism and other philosophies, can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Even if only one was predominant historically, others can exist.

I'm not describing effects, and that wasn't intended to be an attack. The core of Confucianism are the 5 relationships that define society: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucian ... ationships

I reported a summary of the duties assigned to these roles. For a concete application, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Obe ... Obediences I should mention that distaste for the relationships is a modern reaction. The Catholics who first arrived in China loved them and wanted to import them back to Europe.

I did briefly mention the other features of Confucianism. Culture (lǐ "rites"), when carried out with a sincere heart (xīn), trains people in humane virtues (rén). The ruler is advised by sages chosen by meritocratic examination focusing on the classics. Students are expected to study the classics and learn the arts of a gentleman. But core of the philosophy are the social ethics. The result is authoritarian humanism. Not just that, but the focus on filial piety made the Chinese obsessed with tracing descent. This is the core content of the philosophy, not just an implication. Confucians would have stressed the relationships of obedience and benevolence, but if you'd rather focus on the virtues than how they were intended to be applied, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucian ... and_ethics

By contrast, Marx never said that making Stalin dictator for life will make things hunky dory for all eternity. His main mistake was that he opposed all human rights, not just the rights of the rich to exploit the poor. This is because he had a level of respect for human sanity that was unwarranted in hindsight. Since humans are lunatics, we do need some kind of an asylum. That's why a state focused on upholding rights and the popular will is good insurance.

The Confucian focus on rites encouraged people to elevate everyday occurrences by infusing them with ritual significance. Without that, the Chinese, Korean and Japanese tea ceremonies wouldn't have existed. The modern book talks about Taoism and Zen, but trust me, infusing beverage with propriety is as Confucian as it gets. I do appreciate these contributions to culture. Other than that, there's symbolism about heaven, earth, rock, tree and the seasons, there are various sects, some of which taught meditation, etc.

It's hard to recommend anything from Confucian writings since the ideas are not very detailed. One lesson I would recommend is to study classic literature, and not just the Chinese classics. The support for studying the humanities is a lesson I appreciate in these dark times when our tech overlords want to cut non-STEM funding for efficiency. Confucians also thought gentlemen should play aristocratic board games like weiqi. If people played more board games, that would make me very happy.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:32 am But if the Golden Age was in the past, then don't we want to advance back to that level?

Are you suggesting the emperor reigning with the mandate of heaven is not an embodiment of the humane virtues?

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 3:21 am

rotting bones wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2025 1:14 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2025 8:32 am Is there a way to explain what "vectors" and "hackers" are in plain terms intelligible to a non-philosopher and non-economist like me? I found your write-up rather impenetrable.

Vectors are financiers. Hackers are white collar workers. The writeup argues that financiers have power over owners of industrial capital because they can pick whom to finance.

Thank you, I understand now.

In that case, try expanding the categories starting from these prototypes:

Vectoralists: In addition to financiers, add all owners of networks. Since Elon Musk controls Xitter, his role is closer to a financier than an industrial capitalist. He's able to directly intervene in the flow of public opinion.

Hackers: This category includes creatives like artists.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 6:08 pm The ruler is advised by sages chosen by meritocratic examination focusing on the classics.

Minor correction: the examination system didn't start till 600 CE, a millennium after Confucius. (It was also spectacularly unsuited to modernity and arguably made the 1800s far worse for China than they had to be.)

The Confucian ideal of scholar-officials has much to recommend it over the European medieval idea of giving power to, essentially, horse warriors. On the other hand it's not that different from the Roman patrician, who was supposed to be a cultured gentleman.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 5:47 pm The Neo-Confucians can be blamed for the dampening of Chinese innovation after the Tang/Song.

Neo-Confucians imported ideas from Buddhism and Taoism, and then turned against both. For some reason, creating a synthesis of the three schools gave them a notion that they had reached the summit of wisdom.

Wang Yangming's teaching focused on mental cultivation. This school was popular in China, and Chinese science regressed under them.

Zhu Xi's school emphasized investigating the facts before coming to conclusions. This school was more popular in Korea.

Under them, Korea did invent an alphabetic script and the turtle ship. Movable metal type printing was invented before the Neo-Confucian domination, I think. On the other hand, medieval Korean Neo-Confucians complained their society had become so hierarchical that no one could be anyone's friend. Everyone was either a superior or an inferior.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 6:39 pm Minor correction: the examination system didn't start till 600 CE, a millennium after Confucius. (It was also spectacularly unsuited to modernity and arguably made the 1800s far worse for China than they had to be.)

Confucius founded Confucianism, but many others contributed to its development.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 6:39 pm The Confucian ideal of scholar-officials has much to recommend it over the European medieval idea of giving power to, essentially, horse warriors. On the other hand it's not that different from the Roman patrician, who was supposed to be a cultured gentleman.

Confucius said that anyone can become a gentlemen scholar, not just aristocrats.

子曰：有教無類。
The Master said: "In teaching, there should be no distinction of classes."

— Analects 15.39.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 6:09 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:32 am But if the Golden Age was in the past, then don't we want to advance back to that level?

Are you suggesting the emperor reigning with the mandate of heaven is not an embodiment of the humane virtues?

One Whom Holds the Mandate Of Heaven is expected to be such an embodiment...but as Confucius himself observed, just because one rules, does not mean the ruler has reached the heights of the Golden Age, or that his nation has done so either.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:04 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 6:09 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 9:32 am But if the Golden Age was in the past, then don't we want to advance back to that level?

Are you suggesting the emperor reigning with the mandate of heaven is not an embodiment of the humane virtues?

One Whom Holds the Mandate Of Heaven is expected to be such an embodiment...but as Confucius himself observed, just because one rules, does not mean the ruler has reached the heights of the Golden Age, or that his nation has done so either.

Rites that are novel or foreign couldn't possibly have been present in the Yellow Emperor's court.

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:31 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:04 pm

rotting bones wrote: ↑Wed Feb 12, 2025 6:09 pm
Are you suggesting the emperor reigning with the mandate of heaven is not an embodiment of the humane virtues?

One Whom Holds the Mandate Of Heaven is expected to be such an embodiment...but as Confucius himself observed, just because one rules, does not mean the ruler has reached the heights of the Golden Age, or that his nation has done so either.

Rites that are novel or foreign couldn't possibly have been present in the Yellow Emperor's court.

if the US can lose the ability to make certain kinds of Moon-reaching rockets, and Linear B can be lost, I see no reason why some of the skills and noble ways of the Golden Age couldn't also be lost.

Realistically speaking, your fate was sealed the instant you spoke against the Son of Heaven.