Tips on Applying Phonetics

[Shewolf13]

Hello all ^^

I hope this is the right place for this. Since it's a question on phonetics, I thought this was the proper board for it. If not, please let me know!

So I started conlanging (and delving into linguistics) several years ago. I stopped as life kinda went a little crazy. But I did do some delving back then and I'm doing it now. Phonetics seems to be something I'm struggling with a little. Not because I don't understand how it works. I do understand the theories behind it, how it works. I understand what what the categories are, how the sounds are formed.

I seem to be struggling with applying it. Specifically applying it to full words. My brain has a hard time translating those sounds or at least figuring out their phonemes properly. I have a small set of words for my language, Serasa, but I'm struggling with making sure the phonemes I'm going with make sense based on the words I've already created.

I was hoping there might be some tricks or suggestions anyone may have to help with this. Thank you all for your time.

[bradrn]

Welcome Shewolf13!

I seem to be struggling with applying it. Specifically applying it to full words. My brain has a hard time translating those sounds or at least figuring out their phonemes properly. I have a small set of words for my language, Serasa, but I'm struggling with making sure the phonemes I'm going with make sense based on the words I've already created.

I’m finding it difficult to understand what you mean by this… could you perhaps give some more concrete examples of situations where you’ve struggled?

[Shewolf13]

Welcome Shewolf13!

I seem to be struggling with applying it. Specifically applying it to full words. My brain has a hard time translating those sounds or at least figuring out their phonemes properly. I have a small set of words for my language, Serasa, but I'm struggling with making sure the phonemes I'm going with make sense based on the words I've already created.

I’m finding it difficult to understand what you mean by this… could you perhaps give some more concrete examples of situations where you’ve struggled?

Thank you! And absolutely. I definitely should have thought of that. Apologies.

So for instance, I understand that a labial plosive is /p/. I know what that sounds like and even feels like to say. Same goes for most of the other phonemes (except for some of the glottal phonemes, but slowly picking away at that).

The issue seems to come into play when I have a word in my language, Serasa. Transcribing it into IPA for the phonology is proving difficult. An example is: arura means 'soulbound'. As I'm saying it, I'm having a hard time placing the sounds that make it up. It seems to be some form of disconnect in my brain that has trouble transcribing the individual sounds when it's in the full word form, if that makes sense? The pronunciation should be uh-RUR-a, but for some reason I struggle with determining the proper IPA transcription.

I was worldbuilding and so had a bunch of terms already for certain things, and now that I want to make this the protolanguage, I'm working a little backwards I think.

I'm still very much an amateur conlanger and am wondering if its just a matter of practice or having some tricks. Hopefully that makes sense. Thank you so much!

[alice]

I think you might be confusing phonetic and phonemic representations. Phonetic representations are generally narrower (more precise) and thus more pernickerty, and you shouldn't really have to worry about them unless you're going into the details of pronunciation differences by different speakers. They're written between [square brackets]. Phonemic representations are given in terms of the language's sound-system, and are written between /slahes/.

As an example, the word late is represented phonemically as /let/, but its phonetic representation could be something like [letʰ], [ʟeʔ], [leɪt], or even [lait]. You'll find it a lot easier for now to think in phonemic terms; I suspect your arura has the simple phonemic representation /arura/, and adding phonetic detail you'd say the initial /a/ is realised as /ə/, thus a broad phonetic transcription would be [ə.ru.ra].

[zompist]

You'll find it a lot easier for now to think in phonemic terms; I suspect your arura has the simple phonemic representation /arura/, and adding phonetic detail you'd say the initial /a/ is realised as /ə/, thus a broad phonetic transcription would be [ə.ru.ra].

ə or shwa is the IPA representation of English "uh". English often reduces /a/ to [ə]... in fact it reduces lots of vowels to [ə].

If the phonemic form is /arura/, you have a rule— whether you know it or not yet —that /a/ becomes [ə] before a stressed vowel. A linguist would say your /a/ has two allophones, [ə] and [a].

Now, conlanging is full of options, and you have a few here. You're writing the rules... or discovering them based on what sounds right to you. For instance, maybe it's /e/ that reduces to [ə], in which case the word is /erura/. Yet another possibility is that you actually have phonemic /ə/ so the word is /ərura/.

A lot of us find phonology fascinating and could spend days on this. If it's all too confusing, concentrate on the phonemic level, as alice suggests. What you want is a phonological inventory, a list of all the phonemes your language has. Most conlang grammars begin with one.

[Shewolf13]

I think you might be confusing phonetic and phonemic representations. Phonetic representations are generally narrower (more precise) and thus more pernickerty, and you shouldn't really have to worry about them unless you're going into the details of pronunciation differences by different speakers. They're written between [square brackets]. Phonemic representations are given in terms of the language's sound-system, and are written between /slahes/.

As an example, the word late is represented phonemically as /let/, but its phonetic representation could be something like [letʰ], [ʟeʔ], [leɪt], or even [lait]. You'll find it a lot easier for now to think in phonemic terms; I suspect your arura has the simple phonemic representation /arura/, and adding phonetic detail you'd say the initial /a/ is realised as /ə/, thus a broad phonetic transcription would be [ə.ru.ra].

Thank you! Yes, I do think I am confusing the two. That makes a lot more sense. I'm overthinking or at least getting too far into the weeds as it were for just getting back into things. I'm mostly in the beginning stages, so I'm jumping a bit ahead of myself I think.

You'll find it a lot easier for now to think in phonemic terms; I suspect your arura has the simple phonemic representation /arura/, and adding phonetic detail you'd say the initial /a/ is realised as /ə/, thus a broad phonetic transcription would be [ə.ru.ra].

ə or shwa is the IPA representation of English "uh". English often reduces /a/ to [ə]... in fact it reduces lots of vowels to [ə].

If the phonemic form is /arura/, you have a rule— whether you know it or not yet —that /a/ becomes [ə] before a stressed vowel. A linguist would say your /a/ has two allophones, [ə] and [a].

Now, conlanging is full of options, and you have a few here. You're writing the rules... or discovering them based on what sounds right to you. For instance, maybe it's /e/ that reduces to [ə], in which case the word is /erura/. Yet another possibility is that you actually have phonemic /ə/ so the word is /ərura/.

A lot of us find phonology fascinating and could spend days on this. If it's all too confusing, concentrate on the phonemic level, as alice suggests. What you want is a phonological inventory, a list of all the phonemes your language has. Most conlang grammars begin with one.

That makes a lot of sense. I am taking some inspiration from Japanese and possibly adding in one set of vowels and/or consonents, and taking out another set for the phonological inventory. But I was trying to figure out what that might mean for what words I have right now (these came about as I was worldbuilding). I was attempting to see if they fit the inventory but perhaps I'm making things too complicated right off the bat.

I find phonology fascinating as well; I just seem to have a bit more issues in applying it, I think. My favorite parts are the syntax, semantics and pragmatics of language, but I'd like to improve on my understanding and practical application of phonetics as well.

Thank you both!

[bradrn]

One other thing: if you really get stuck, it’s always possible to record your own voice and play it back more slowly. You could even post the recording here if you want a second opinion.

[alice]

But I was trying to figure out what that might mean for what words I have right now (these came about as I was worldbuilding). I was attempting to see if they fit the inventory but perhaps I'm making things too complicated right off the bat.

Ah, so you have some words and you're trying to work out your phonemes from there? That could lead to some interesting inventories.

Thank you both!

Glad to be of some use!

[Shewolf13]

One other thing: if you really get stuck, it’s always possible to record your own voice and play it back more slowly. You could even post the recording here if you want a second opinion.

Oh thats a great idea! I'll have to try that out. Thanks for the suggestion!

But I was trying to figure out what that might mean for what words I have right now (these came about as I was worldbuilding). I was attempting to see if they fit the inventory but perhaps I'm making things too complicated right off the bat.

Ah, so you have some words and you're trying to work out your phonemes from there? That could lead to some interesting inventories.

Thank you both!

Glad to be of some use!

Yup, I think so lol. In some cases, I definitely tend toward certain sounds so hopefully not too crazy. But we'll see when I go through it. Have to go slowly right now as I have several different things going on at once and the language is currently in what spare time I have which this week is going to be fairly little.

Thanks again!

[Qwynegold]

It sounds to me like you're doing it a bit backwards. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your process is like this: First you create the written form of the word. Then you pronounce it, in an English way. Then you try to figure out the phonetic transcription of that.

I think most of us follow a process something like this: First you create the phoneme inventory. Then you create the phonotactics (ie. what the syllable structure is and the rules of which sounds can go where). The rules of allophony could be created at this point, but it can also wait for later. Then you decide on the orthography (spelling system). Then you create the words. The phonemes of these words will be obvious at this point, but the phonetic representation will be unknown until you've decided about allophony.

Now, there's nothing that prevents you from doing things your own way, and everyone's process will be at least slightly different. But I think there's a risk you will just copy your own dialect's allophony onto your conlang, if you first create the written form and then try to figure how to pronounce the word depending on how it looks on paper.

I hope this gives you some clarity.

[Shewolf13]

It sounds to me like you're doing it a bit backwards. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your process is like this: First you create the written form of the word. Then you pronounce it, in an English way. Then you try to figure out the phonetic transcription of that.

I think most of us follow a process something like this: First you create the phoneme inventory. Then you create the phonotactics (ie. what the syllable structure is and the rules of which sounds can go where). The rules of allophony could be created at this point, but it can also wait for later. Then you decide on the orthography (spelling system). Then you create the words. The phonemes of these words will be obvious at this point, but the phonetic representation will be unknown until you've decided about allophony.

Now, there's nothing that prevents you from doing things your own way, and everyone's process will be at least slightly different. But I think there's a risk you will just copy your own dialect's allophony onto your conlang, if you first create the written form and then try to figure how to pronounce the word depending on how it looks on paper.

I hope this gives you some clarity.

I wasn't planning on doing a full conlang. I was working on world building. As I did so though, it became more clear that I was going to need a language, but I already had a few words that ended up coming up. Usually, yes, I would do the phoneme inventory first. The words just kinda came up as English equivalents weren't really working for many of the concepts. It has been some years since I was conlanging and I was trying not to get sucked in again XD mostly because I tend to go a little crazy with it timewise and I am trying to get to writing the novel I'm working on outlining.

So long story short, I am doing things a little backwards in this instance because I didn't have any intention to do this, but I think having a language (actually several) would benefit this world/story I'm building. And for the most part, I'm trying to avoid using a lot of English phonemes; I'm using Japanese as a base and adding/subtracting where I think it makes sense. But I am having to relearn so much of what I once knew and I know I'm overthinking some aspects of it which doesn't help.