The Great Tolkien Legendarium Thread

[WeepingElf]

I guess most of you have read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, maybe further writings by Tolkien, or watched the films and the TV series based thereon. Especially Tolkien's languages are probably a major source of inspiration to many conlangers. So I guess there are people around here who are interested in discussions of Tolkien's legendarium. This thread is for you!

To begin, I shall address the claim that Quenya resembles Finnish. In my opinion, there are some resemblances, especially in morphological type. Like Finnish, Quenya is a richly inflected agglutinating language with a tendency towards fusion; it has a rich case system and possessive suffixes. Its phonology, however, shows some major differences. Quenya has more consonants, especially the palatal (tyelpetéma) and labiovelar (quessetéma) series, in which point it more closely resembles PIE, but fewer geminates (which are very prominent in Finnish) and, tying in with that, no consonant gradation. The vowel system is different, too: Quenya lacks the vowel qualities /æ ø y/ and vowel harmony (in the Finnish vowel harmony system, all Quenya words would be in the "back" class); it also has fewer diphthongs. So the resemblance between Quenya and Finnish is IMHO less close than that between Sindarin and Welsh.

[Ares Land]

Yes, there's something Latinish or, as you, say, IE about it. It's interesting in that it fits the myths very well -- to a European reader, at least, it'll register as 'classical.'

[WeepingElf]

Yes, there's something Latinish or, as you, say, IE about it. It's interesting in that it fits the myths very well -- to a European reader, at least, it'll register as 'classical.'

It did for me; and it surely was Tolkien's intention that it would - Tolkien himself characterized it as an "Elf-Latin" in one of the LotR appendices. My first impression was that it was similar to Latin - but that was at a time when I knew nothing about Finnish. Last year, I was contacted by a person who had the idea that the Quendian languages once were actually spoken in this world (by ordinary humans, though), and related to Tolkien by ghosts. I replied that while I could imagine the languages to be real, I don't believe in ghosts, but Tolkien could have learned the languages from old manuscripts. I even wondered where and when Proto-Quendian could have been spoken, and considering the resemblances to IE and Uralic languages, I felt that it would have been spoken not too far from PIE and Proto-Uralic, perhaps in the area of the Baltic countries and adjacent parts of Russia and Belarus (which would mean that the "real Cuiviénen" would be the Baltic Sea), at the same time, i.e. 3000 BC. Alas, that is just an idle mind game - the languages are of course Tolkien's invention, but a good one.

As you probably know, my Albic project started as a modern descendant of Sindarin called "Nur-ellen", but later was divorced from this Tolkienian root as my Elves became something very different from Tolkien's, and using Tolkien's languages felt like intellectual theft to me. My Elves would speak their own languages! Still, my ideas about modern Albic languages feature a Sindarin-like language in Britain and a Quenya-like language in Madeira, both descending from Old Albic which is currently being rebuilt as an IE language related to Hittite. But I got the idea that Tolkien could have picked up some remarks on the sounds of these languages from an article that appeared in a minor spiritist journal in 1911, written by someone who had overheard a conversation among some Elves in a pub near Glastonbury, Somerset; the author of that article had no knowledge of the Albic languages but merely described how they sounded.

[Richard W]

A British political commentator, Phil Moorhouse, has a withering attack on a misunderstanding of Hobbits - |Elon Musk Exposed on Tolkien Ignorance (Yes, Really).

[alice]

A British political commentator, Phil Moorhouse, has a withering attack on a misunderstanding of Hobbits - |Elon Musk Exposed on Tolkien Ignorance (Yes, Really).

Not in any way trying to defend El*n M*sk here, but it *is* true that Tolkien wanted the Shire to recall or resemble a rural Warwickshire village at the end of the 19th century.

[Travis B.]

A British political commentator, Phil Moorhouse, has a withering attack on a misunderstanding of Hobbits - |Elon Musk Exposed on Tolkien Ignorance (Yes, Really).

Not in any way trying to defend El*n M*sk here, but it *is* true that Tolkien wanted the Shire to recall or resemble a rural Warwickshire village at the end of the 19th century.

But but but I thought the Shire was supposed to resemble New Zealand!

[WeepingElf]

A British political commentator, Phil Moorhouse, has a withering attack on a misunderstanding of Hobbits - |Elon Musk Exposed on Tolkien Ignorance (Yes, Really).

Not in any way trying to defend El*n M*sk here, but it *is* true that Tolkien wanted the Shire to recall or resemble a rural Warwickshire village at the end of the 19th century.

But but but I thought the Shire was supposed to resemble New Zealand!

New Zealand was actually a rather good choice for the film adaptation as it its landscapes are somewhat resembling those of Europe Tolkien modelled his Middle-earth after but still are somewhat different.

On another matter, I once read a German book in which the author accuses Tolkien of racism (Elves and Númenóreans as über-Nordics etc.); I think this is undeserved, though Tolkien fell victim of racial stereotypes of his time (but the most lovable race in his legendarium are the hobbits, who hardly fit any stereotypes of a "master race" - the Elves and Númenóreans come across as haughty and arrogant often enough); however, I don't know whether a character like Arondir is the best way to counter these stereotypes.

[Raphael]

On another matter, I once read a German book in which the author accuses Tolkien of racism (Elves and Númenóreans as über-Nordics etc.); I think this is undeserved, though Tolkien fell victim of racial stereotypes of his time (but the most lovable race in his legendarium are the hobbits, who hardly fit any stereotypes of a "master race" - the Elves and Númenóreans come across as haughty and arrogant often enough); however, I don't know whether a character like Arondir is the best way to counter these stereotypes.

I'd say the "non-human races" of the legendarium are probably a take on the traditional British class system as seen by an old-school conservative who approved of it: the Elves are an idealized version of the aristocracy, the hobbits are middle class, the dwarves (most of the time) are "good", "loyal" working class people, and the orcs are "bad", "rebellious" working class people.

[xxx]

A British political commentator, Phil Moorhouse, has a withering attack on a misunderstanding of Hobbits - |Elon Musk Exposed on Tolkien Ignorance (Yes, Really).

It's surreal...
just like a sermon I heard,
these days, using the Lord Of The Rings...

[alice]

On another matter, I once read a German book in which the author accuses Tolkien of racism (Elves and Númenóreans as über-Nordics etc.); I think this is undeserved, though Tolkien fell victim of racial stereotypes of his time (but the most lovable race in his legendarium are the hobbits, who hardly fit any stereotypes of a "master race" - the Elves and Númenóreans come across as haughty and arrogant often enough); however, I don't know whether a character like Arondir is the best way to counter these stereotypes.

I'd say the "non-human races" of the legendarium are probably a take on the traditional British class system as seen by an old-school conservative who approved of it: the Elves are an idealized version of the aristocracy, the hobbits are middle class, the dwarves (most of the time) are "good", "loyal" working class people, and the orcs are "bad", "rebellious" working class people.

An interesting and mildly cynical obversation, but I think it's more likely JRRT was more motivated by religion than by class.

[WeepingElf]

On another matter, I once read a German book in which the author accuses Tolkien of racism (Elves and Númenóreans as über-Nordics etc.); I think this is undeserved, though Tolkien fell victim of racial stereotypes of his time (but the most lovable race in his legendarium are the hobbits, who hardly fit any stereotypes of a "master race" - the Elves and Númenóreans come across as haughty and arrogant often enough); however, I don't know whether a character like Arondir is the best way to counter these stereotypes.

I'd say the "non-human races" of the legendarium are probably a take on the traditional British class system as seen by an old-school conservative who approved of it: the Elves are an idealized version of the aristocracy, the hobbits are middle class, the dwarves (most of the time) are "good", "loyal" working class people, and the orcs are "bad", "rebellious" working class people.

That's quite a reasonable interpretation, I think. Not a perfect fit, but close, and a better take than claims that his Elves and Númenóreans represented a "master race". In this context, it is perhaps remarkable that Adûnaïc, the language of the Númenóreans (which is also the language Westron descends from), does not resemble an IE language much but seems rather to be inspired by Afroasiatic (Semitic, Egyptian etc.) languages; what more closely resembles IE languages are those of the Elves.

What lies behind the racial stereotypes in Middle-earth seems to be that the geographical distribution of the races follows that of our world, and the strongholds of Good are in the northwest; hence, the good guys resemble Europeans. Of course, with having the strongholds of Good in the northwest, he followed a Eurocentric cliché, but he almost certainly wanted to win the heart of Englishmen, who can more easily attune to good guys whose homeland and culture resemble Europe and more particularly Britain. That IMHO was more of a reason to have the good guys in the northwest than any belief in a "Nordic master race", a concept Tolkien detested.

[Raphael]

a better take than claims that his Elves and Númenóreans represented a "master race".

I don't remember it that well, but weren't the Númenóreans a group of people whose hubris eventually led to their fall? I don't think that's the kind of story arc most of the people who are obsessed with "master races" would approve of.

[zompist]

I'd say the "non-human races" of the legendarium are probably a take on the traditional British class system as seen by an old-school conservative who approved of it: the Elves are an idealized version of the aristocracy, the hobbits are middle class, the dwarves (most of the time) are "good", "loyal" working class people, and the orcs are "bad", "rebellious" working class people.

Kind of, but only because he was drawing on old lore. Dwarves go back to Norse mythology. Elves (to my knowledge) go back to the Longaevi of medieval folklore, the same source as the fae (medieval fairies, not the debased Victorian ones).

You can see the traditional British classes among the hobbits, with a very heavy dose of noblesse oblige. Three of the four main hobbits are aristocrats, and the Sam/Frodo relationship is the same sentimental feudalism seen in Sam Weller / Mr. Pickwick or, for that matter, Alfred / Batman.

What lies behind the racial stereotypes in Middle-earth seems to be that the geographical distribution of the races follows that of our world, and the strongholds of Good are in the northwest; hence, the good guys resemble Europeans. Of course, with having the strongholds of Good in the northwest, he followed a Eurocentric cliché, but he almost certainly wanted to win the heart of Englishmen, who can more easily attune to good guys whose homeland and culture resemble Europe and more particularly Britain.

I don't think he was racist, but his project was definitely that of a guy born in 1892. Where C.S. Lewis put a form of India into his fantasy, Tolkien just has ill-defined bad guys in the south and nothing at all in the east.

[Richard W]

Kind of, but only because he was drawing on old lore. Dwarves go back to Norse mythology. Elves (to my knowledge) go back to the Longaevi of medieval folklore, the same source as the fae (medieval fairies, not the debased Victorian ones).

I think he tried to connect them to their Anglo-Saxon correspondents, but our traditional culture has been well-suppressed, with the collusion of kings.

[Richard W]

Where C.S. Lewis put a form of India into his fantasy, Tolkien just has ill-defined bad guys in the south and nothing at all in the east.

I see Lewis's Calormen as a caricature of Ottoman Turkey, rather than of India, with dashes of ancient slurs. In particular, I think Tash is Termagant. However, its inspiration is a bit more diffuse, with Persian ghuls inhabiting the necropolis of Tashbaan. After all, it is fiction.

[zompist]

Where C.S. Lewis put a form of India into his fantasy, Tolkien just has ill-defined bad guys in the south and nothing at all in the east.

I see Lewis's Calormen as a caricature of Ottoman Turkey, rather than of India, with dashes of ancient slurs. In particular, I think Tash is Termagant. However, its inspiration is a bit more diffuse, with Persian ghuls inhabiting the necropolis of Tashbaan. After all, it is fiction.

A lot of people think Calormen is Islamic, but I see no evidence of that. He and his brother created a joint fantasy land as children-- he did "Animal-Land" and his brother did India. Add in Sohrab and Rustum which Lewis refers to in his works; this is ultimately Persian, but the story is pre-Islamic. I expect he knew the 1001 Nights which helped provide the atmosphere of the capital city. Tash is more likely to be a form of Ba'al; there is absolutely nothing about him reminiscent of Islam, but much about Raj-era British ideas of Indian and ancient Middle Eastern gods.

[WeepingElf]

a better take than claims that his Elves and Númenóreans represented a "master race".

I don't remember it that well, but weren't the Númenóreans a group of people whose hubris eventually led to their fall? I don't think that's the kind of story arc most of the people who are obsessed with "master races" would approve of.

Yes, they were; you are right. They are, in essence, a "master race" seen from the other end of the telescope. The Númenóreans believed they were destined to rule the world (including the Undying Lands!), and that was the cause of their downfall. While the Elves are a race who are past their heyday and gradually retreating from the mortal world.

Kind of, but only because he was drawing on old lore. Dwarves go back to Norse mythology. Elves (to my knowledge) go back to the Longaevi of medieval folklore, the same source as the fae (medieval fairies, not the debased Victorian ones).

Tolkien's goal with the Elves was certainly to reinstate them into their old greatness they had in Germanic and Celtic mythology, and to end their debasement into silly little flower fairies. Is it a coincidence that he started working on this project in the same year the Cottingley fairy photographs were forged? (In the Book of Lost Tales, he apparently entertained the notion that the Elves once were a great, powerful race of human-sized beings who over time physically dwindled into little fairies, but he abandoned the idea later in favour of the "classical" image of the Elves disappearing simply by sailing away into another world.)

I don't think he was racist, but his project was definitely that of a guy born in 1892. Where C.S. Lewis put a form of India into his fantasy, Tolkien just has ill-defined bad guys in the south and nothing at all in the east.

Yes.

[Richard W]

A lot of people think Calormen is Islamic, but I see no evidence of that.

Replacing Allah by a pagan god is one of the slurs.

[alice]

I don't think he was racist, but his project was definitely that of a guy born in 1892.

We could say that something else clearly was the project of a guy born in 1859

Back on topic, it also shows up in the relative absence of women in LotR (quick quiz: without looking it up, how many women in LotR have speaking lines?), which is not unusual for certain genres of literature of the time, but looks anachronistic today and is the source of much perhaps unfair criticism, like someone from the 1950's earnestly describing invaders from the Red Planet.

[zompist]

A lot of people think Calormen is Islamic, but I see no evidence of that.

Replacing Allah by a pagan god is one of the slurs.

You're begging the question, and also ignoring the evidence from Lewis's own writings.

Lewis was not a fundamentalist and did not have a distorted medieval view of Islam. Ironically, fundamentalists often dislike Lewis because of the "pagan" elements in Narnia.