The Māori Thread

[Imralu]

I've started to fall in love with another language that brings no apparent benefit to my life where I currently live: Māori. At least I can find Swahili speakers in my country, but I don't know of any Māori speakers at all here. I've had a thing for it for years - ever since I randomly found "Teach Yourself Maori" on the street one time, and I've never stuck with it. It's just too hard for a bit of casual fun. (Relatable!) Weirdly enough, the hardest thing to me so far is how to negate a sentence, which has never been such a big topic in any other language I've learnt. Anyway, I thought I'd make a thread about what I know so far, in case anyone is interested. If not, well, it's a space to help me organise what I know so far. I tend to chaotically find information and then forget where I found it. I can't guarantee the correctitude of this information - by all means, please correct me on anything if you know.

Phonology:

Consonants:

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        /m/     /n/     /ŋ/
        /p/     /t/     /k/
        /f/                     /h/
                /ɾ/

These are written as pronounced in IPA except /ŋ/, written ‹ng›, /f/, written ‹wh› and /ɾ/ written ‹r›.

The spelling ‹wh› reflects an earlier widespread pronunciation as [ʍ] or [ɸ]. [f] has probably always existed as well but has, probably due to English influence, come to be the most widespread pronunciation of this sound. Old loans of English words with /f/ typically have /p/, such as parāoa "bread, flour" (from "flour"). There is considerable dialectal variation, however, such as dialects around Whanganui Mt Taranaki in which /h/ is pronounced [ʔ] and /f/ as [ˀw] (or [ʔʷ]?) (Here's one example. And in this video, the reporter off screen, Eruera Rerekura, for some reason speaks with this accent, even though he doesn't otherwise. You can compare how he pronounces the word whenua as [ˈˀwenua] when everybody else says [ˈfenua]).

In most of the South Island, where the local dialects are effectively extinct, /ŋ/ was merged into /k/ and place names are spelt accordingly, such as Mt Cook/Aoraki and Stewart Island/Rakiura. Both of these place names would have /ŋ/ in North Island Māori dialects (rangi = 'sky'). Far south in the South Island, /ɾ/ was pronounced as /l/ and voicing of consonants and also dropping of final vowels was common and this is reflected in some place names (such as the district Otago).

The plosives /p/, /t/ and /k/ have apparently become more aspirated under influence from English and /t/ before a high vowel is often noticeably affricated to /t͡s/. This is the only sibilant in Māori at all. (A similar change gave Tongan its /s/, I believe. I think Sāmoan is the only Polynesian language to preserve the original Proto-Polynesian */s/, but I might be wrong.)

There is a little part of me that is just like "Think of how much space would be saved if they wrote 'f' instead of 'wh' and 'g' instead of 'ng' (as in Tongan, Samoan, Fijian et many al. You could just have one character per consonant!!! But actually, aesthetically I quite like the look of <wh> and <ng>, so I don't mind too much. Ngā whare looks better than Gā fare, I think. (Although, since I went ahead and added macrons to my custom keyboard, I also added Ŋ ŋ ... and that would be nice! I'd better stop before I bust out a conlang!)

Vowels:

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        FRONT   CENTRAL BACK
HIGH:   /i iː/  /ʉ ʉː/
MID:    /e eː/          /o oː/
LOW:            /a aː/

Māori has a pretty standard Polynesian five vowel system with each vowel coming in both long and short forms. The only notable thing about the vowel system is that /ʉ/ and /ʉː/ are fronted more than in most related languages. This fronting is probably influenced by NZ English as the realisation of /uː/ in antipodean Englishes is [ʉː]. Among older speakers and in old recordings, this fronting was mainly present after /t/ and /n/. What I find interesting, however, is that this shift from [ u ] to [ʉ] is quite consistently applied, affecting both the long and the short vowel as well as affecting its value within diphthongs. I wouldn't have expected either of these to occur under influence from English.

The long versions of the vowels are significantly longer and also slightly more peripheral (although more equal in value for younger speakers). Long vowels are not marked at all in old texts, represented by doubling the written vowel in some texts (eg. aa, ee, ii) and, as prescribed in modern usage, with a macron (ā, ē, ī etc.). This is not so where a long vowel is created by two identical vowels occurring naturally next to one another. The distinction is not audible, with a word such as whakaaro 'think' being pronounced as though written whakāro; the reason for the double vowel is a morpheme boundary; whaka+aro. This process can even extend across word boundaries, as in i a au [ACC PERS 1S] 'me' pronounced as though written i āu.

Diphthongs:
The following vowel combinations are pronounced as diphthongs: <ae> <ai> <ao> <au> <oi> <oe> <ou> as well as their long forms <āe>, <āi> etc. Again, as with long vowels, these diphthongs can apparently occur even across morpheme boundaries.

The diphthongs from the short <a> to a high vowel start slightly higher giving something like [ɜi̯] for <ai> and [ɜʉ̯] for <au>. The diphthong written <oe> often sounds to me like a rising rather than a falling diphthong, especially noticeable in the word koe which can sound like [ko̯e], almost like [kwe]. I don't know if this is backed up by research, but some phrasebooks do describe it in ways that could lead you to think that the authors hear it that way too (if anyone can actually understand what phrasebook authors mean when they describe sounds in weird, imprecise ways).

Personally, I find the distinction between <ai> and <ae> the most difficult part of Māori pronunciation. My PRICE vowel is something like [ɑe̯], so instead of trying to lower the end of <ae>, I should probably focus on raising the end of <ai> ... and raising the beginning to [ɐ]. I have no such difficulty between <au> and <ao> because the <u> is fronted everywhere, but I do have a bit of difficulty with <au> and <ou> because both [ɜʉ̯] and [oʉ̯] are within the range of my GOAT vowel (although [oʉ̯] is quite weird and I'd probably only do it in English when putting on a funny voice/accent/imitating someone with exaggeration) ... but I think maybe my problem is that I'm not really hearing any difference a lot of the time merely because a lot of people apparently merge them these days. Probably the raising of the <a> in <au> made that more likely but also the fact that these just sound like variants of the GOAT vowel to NZers and Aussies probably helped. I'm going to try to keep them separate and I have heard people say <ou> with what sounds like quite a bit less fronting on the second element and even a bit like [oʊ̯] or even [ʊu̯] if I'm not imagining things and considering there's the whole area around [ u ] in the vowel space that's quite empty, it wouldn't surprise me if something was being pulled in that direction.

Stress and Prosody:
Word stress is a little bit unpredictably but generally follows some rough rules. Vowels can be ranked from most stress attracting to least stress attracting:

• long vowels
• diphthongs
• short vowels

If there are long vowels in the word, the first long vowel generally takes the stress. If there are no long vowels but there are diphthongs, the first diphthong takes the stress. A word final diphthong, however, seems to sometimes take stress and sometimes not. (?) If the word only has short vowels, the word is generally stressed on the first syllable, although the common prefix whaka-, which is usually a causative, is not stressed. (Again, morpheme boundaries don't seem to play a part and the word whakaaro is /faˈkaːɾo/ and not */fakaˈaɾo/ and whakaipoipo seems to be /faˈkəi̯poi̯po/ because of diphthongisation).

Maori intonation seems to have made its mark on the English of Maori people. I don't know exactly what it is, but there's a certain type of intonation in questions especially which I hear in Māori and in English as spoken by Māori people but not in Pākehā (non-Māori, generally white NZer) English. Questions go up at the end, but you can kind of also tell early on in the sentence that it's a question. I think the whole sentence is basically raised in pitch and then an extra high bit at the end, but I can't tell exactly what it is, because statements in Māori English also tend to rise towards the end. Here's a good (and funny) example of Māori English intonation ... with statements also rising at the end, but in a particular way that sounds very Polynesian to me. Wow, that was scientific! Anyway, point is, intonation is the only thing that tells you if something is a y/n question or a statement a lot of the time, so it's important and I've explained it badly. More posts to come now that phonology is out of the way.

[Imralu]

Nouns:

Most nouns in Māori have one form only:

• whare "house(s)"
  manu "bird(s)"
  rākau "tree(s)"
  wai "water(s)"
  moana "ocean(s)"

A few common nouns for people have a plural form which is marked by a lengthened vowel.

• tangata "person" > tāngata "people"
• wahine "woman" > wāhine "women"
• matua "parent" (generally "father") > mātua "parents"
• tupuna / tipuna "ancestor" > tūpuna / tīpuna ancestors
• tuakana "older same-sex sibling" > tuākana "older same-sex siblings"

This noun is just irregular:

• tamaiti "child" > tamariki "children"
  
  I've just realised right now that these are fairly transparent compounds of tama ("son" or occasionally also "daughter") + iti "small" or riki: another word for "small"

Articles:

For common nouns, definite and indefinite articles exist, although their use is somewhat complicated by syntax.

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              Sing.       Pl.
Definite      te          ngā     
Indefinite    he          he

As you can see in the table, the indefinite article he is used independent of number, whereas the definite article is te in singular and ngā in plural. Nouns which have a different plural form will show their number, whichever kind of article is used, but with others, the surrounding context may be needed:

• he tamaiti = a child
• he tamariki = (some) children
• te wahine = the woman
• ngā wāhine = the women
• he whare = a house / (some) houses
• te whare = the house
• ngā whare = the houses

The indefinite article he is most frequently used in predicative position (i.e. "is a ..." or "are some ...") and is, for some reason, not allowed after any prepositions. In this case, very frequently, the phrase simply becomes definite, but if indefiniteness is needed, the determiner tētahi (in some dialects tētehi can be used instead. It's very often translated as "a certain", but it is not always a specific indefinite because at times it is the only means of marking the indefinite

• tētahi = a/an (certain) ... [sg.]
• ētahi = (some) (certain) ... [pl.]

This means of marking the plural by removing the initial /t/ is very common throughout determiners in Māori.

Determiners:

Determiners mark three levels of distance using three particles:

• nei = near the speaker
• nā = near the listener
• rā = away from speaker and listener

These may simply be used with an article and placed after the noun, as follows ...

• te whare rā = that house (over there)
• ngā tāngata nā = those people (near you)
• te manu nei = this bird

They can however also be merged with the article to create the typical demonstratives. Note the long vowel in the first syllable and the plural being marked by the absence of the /t/. (In some dialects, the t is replaced by ng as it is with the definite article, however this seems fairly fringe.

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Near...       Sing.       Pl.      Translation sg./pl.
1st person    tēnei       ēnei    (this       these) 
2nd person    tēnā        ēnā     (that       those)
3rd person    tērā        ērā     (that       those)

Equivalent to the above phrases are:

• tēnei whare = that house (over there)
• ēnā tāngata = those people (near you)
• tēnei manu = this bird

Adjectives:
Most adjectives have one form only:

• ātaahua = beautiful
• iti = small

A few common adjectives have optional reduplication of the first consonant+vowel to indicate plural:

• te whare pai = the good house
• ngā whare papai = the good houses
• he tāne roa = (is) a tall man
• he tāne roroa = (are) tall men

As you can see, the adjective follows the noun. If there is a demonstrative particle in the noun phrase, it follows any adjective(s).

• te tāne roa rā = that tall man over there ( = tērā tāne roa)

Enough for now. E hiamoe ana ahau. I'll add more soon and also check this for errors. My eyes are closing on their own, so we'll see.

[Pabappa]

Does the word for child indicate both offspring and young people?

[Imralu]

Does the word for child indicate both offspring and young people?

Yeah, it seems that way. "Son" tama is also used to mean "boy" and tamāhine "daughter" can also be "girl" (although there's also kōtiro and hine, particularly in the vocative e hine).

[Kuchigakatai]

Thank you for these posts, I found them interesting. In fact, they're inspiring me to do something like this thread for Spanish. Maybe I'll get around it.

By the way, a typo:

and /ɾ/ written ‹wh›.

[akam chinjir]

I was a bit hoping that wasn't a typo :/

[Imralu]

Thank you for these posts, I found them interesting. In fact, they're inspiring me to do something like this thread for Spanish. Maybe I'll get around it.

By the way, a typo:

and /ɾ/ written ‹wh›.

Thanks for the catch. Edited. I was copying and pasting these angle brackets: ‹ › (to avoid using these ones: < >) and I just forgot to change it to ‹r›!

I was a bit hoping that wasn't a typo :/

Exotic!

[Imralu]

Verbless sentences

Māori has no verb to be. Noun phrases are simply placed next to each other. The predicate is before the subject.

Classifying Sentences:

In classifying sentences, the predicate is an indefinite phrase introduced by he. The head of the predicate may be a noun or an adjective. The subject follows.

• He whare pai tēnei. = This is a good house.
• He pai tēnei whare. = This house is good.
• He ātaahua ngā manu. = The birds are beautiful.
• He nui tētahi, he iti tētahi. = One is big, the other is small.

I don't think the subject can be an indefinite phrase with he in this kind of sentence. To say "An X is a Y", I think you say He Y te X. Te, although the definite singular article, can also be used to introduce an entire class of things, as in British nature documentaries where the lion means "lions". I get the impression he is basically mostly used to indicate an indefinite predicate. It can appear to be the subject at times in other sentence types, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's always possible to analyse it as a predicate in some way. On its own, a he phrase can be existential, like There is/are ....

Equative Sentences:
If the predicate of a sentence is definite, it must be preceded by the particle ko (although this may be dropped in informal speech). In these sentences, it is sometimes not clear which part of the sentence is the predicate and which is the subject subject, but since there is essentially no difference between "The X is the Y" and "The Y is the X" (as we're not classifying one type of thing into another type of thing), it essentially makes no difference except in terms of topic and focus. The particle ko apparently goes before the element which is in greater focus and when in doubt I'll simply treat that as the predicate in my colouring scheme here.

• Ko tōku whare tēnei. = This is my house
• Ko tēnei tōku whare. = My house is this (one).
  
  Tōku means "my" in these sentences. I'll get to possession soon, but it's kind of a big topic.

The ko phrase may be followed by a he phrase and I think what is happening here is that the ko is simply being used to front the definite phrase and bring it in focus and the he phrase is still essentially the real predicate (as this fronting of the subject with ko can also happen in sentences with verbs). I think these two sentences are more or less equivalent except for the focus/topic difference.

• He ariki te tāne rā. = That man over there is an ariki.
• Ko te tāne rā he ariki. = (It's) that man over there (who) is an ariki.
  
  Ariki ≈ chief

Another possible interpretation, I think, would be that the ko and he are both kind of functioning as copulae, marking predicates - and that the he phrase here is a relative clause, which is possible as relative clauses (other than those that relativise oblique arguments) are marked only by gapping and are simply placed after their heads. I'm sure there's probably some literature about what's actually going on here somewhere. I hope so anyway. In any case, I think I now understand well how to make these sentences and what the pragmatics are.

[akam chinjir]

I don't think the subject can be an indefinite phrase with he in this kind of sentence. To say "An X is a Y", I think you say He Y te X. Te, although the definite singular article, can also be used to introduce an entire class of things, as in British nature documentaries where the lion means "lions".

That looks like what I learned to call a generic noun: you're sort of referring to the Xes as a kind, without referring to any one of them in particular. (If that's right, then in my English variant the most natural way to express He Y te X might be Xes are Yes.) It's pretty normal for generic nouns to be fine in contexts that are otherwise restricted to definite nouns (e.g., as topics); I tend to think of them as both definite and nonspecific, but maybe that's idiosyncratic.

[Imralu]

I don't think the subject can be an indefinite phrase with he in this kind of sentence. To say "An X is a Y", I think you say He Y te X. Te, although the definite singular article, can also be used to introduce an entire class of things, as in British nature documentaries where the lion means "lions".

That looks like what I learned to call a generic noun: you're sort of referring to the Xes as a kind, without referring to any one of them in particular. (If that's right, then in my English variant the most natural way to express He Y te X might be Xes are Yes.) It's pretty normal for generic nouns to be fine in contexts that are otherwise restricted to definite nouns (e.g., as topics); I tend to think of them as both definite and nonspecific, but maybe that's idiosyncratic.

There are probably exceptions for fixed phrases, but in my idiolect, that can only be done with no article plural (or, of course, singular with non-count nouns), Xes are Ys. I remember discussing with my hispanophone students that when I say "I like dogs", it's not the same as when I say "I like the dogs" but in Spanish, both are Me gustan los perros. Anyway, using singular definite phrases for generalisations just strikes me as David Attenboroughesque.

[Nerulent]

Great thread Māori (and other Polynesian languages) manages to be so different to English and other isolating languages despite its strict morphological constraints, and you're certainly correct about its complexity.

I hope you don't mind a few additions/corrections:

Tonga has the change t > s before i e rather than i u as in Māori.

The South Island dialect also had the change f > h as in the placename Akaroa from Hakaroa (std Whangaroa). There are parallels in one of the Marquesan languages, and I've seen an interesting theory that it was actually influenced through transpolynesian trade (of which it seems there was a bit in the early years of Aotearoa's settlement). I am a bit sceptical of full on voicing and vowel loss in the far south though, as opposed to settlers mishearing unaspirated stops and reduced/voiceless vowels and/or corruptions of the original names.

According to Harlow, only the four long diphthongs āe, āi, āo and āu exist - the distinction shows up in stress assignment: te moana [te'moana] 'the sea' but te moana nui [temo'ananʉi] 'the big sea'. I don't know if the same distinction exists for aa vs ā. Personally, I pronounce ou as [oʊ̯]. I also wouldn't go to close on the ai, au diphthongs; I think it more just reflects the realization of short a as [ɐ], like NZ English's CUT vowel.

Stress generally falls on one of the last four morae in the word - on the last long vowel if there is one, on the last diphthong except word finally, and otherwise on the fourth to last mora. Stress is generally assigned on a phrasal level and can be shifted as in te moana nui. There can also be a stress on the second to last mora of an utterance, hence the apparent final stress in tēnā koutou katoa 'greetings everyone'. But these rules are just generalisations and borrowings into English tend to be stressed on the second to last syllable, further confusing things.

I think a lot of the Māori accent in English comes from the fact that Māori is mora timed rather than syllable timed. That drink driving ad is fantastic and was super popular here. Another goodie is this gem from the national news.

I think he is more nonspecific than indefinite - there are plenty of cases where Māori uses te or ngā where English uses a. Either way it is restricted to subject position or as the head of a predicate (rather than just after a preposition). John built a house is either expressed as i hanga whare a Hone (with whare 'house' incorporated into the verb phrase) or i hangaia he whare e Hone (with the verb in the passive).

I think saying that noun phrases are just put together is incorrect - instead he just happens to be the indefinite predicate marker as opposed to ko. Also Iwouldn't analyse ko te tāne rā he ariki as containing a relative clause, mainly because I don't think he predicate can be relativised.

---


Again, I hope you don't mind! I'm definitely looking forward to more!

[Imralu]

Great thread Māori (and other Polynesian languages) manages to be so different to English and other isolating languages despite its strict morphological constraints, and you're certainly correct about its complexity.

I hope you don't mind a few additions/corrections:

HOW DARE YOU?!!! Haha, no, seriously, much appreciated. I was going to shout out to you but I couldn't remember your new user name.

The South Island dialect also had the change f > h as in the placename Akaroa from Hakaroa (std Whangaroa). There are parallels in one of the Marquesan languages, and I've seen an interesting theory that it was actually influenced through transpolynesian trade (of which it seems there was a bit in the early years of Aotearoa's settlement).

Oh, I don't think I knew that, or that it was as widespread as the ng > k thing. I know there is f > h in Northlands though, yeah?

I am a bit sceptical of full on voicing and vowel loss in the far south though, as opposed to settlers mishearing unaspirated stops and reduced/voiceless vowels and/or corruptions of the original names.

Yeah, same, but aren't these kind of mishearings pretty much restricted to the south?

According to Harlow, only the four long diphthongs āe, āi, āo and āu exist - the distinction shows up in stress assignment: te moana [te'moana] 'the sea' but te moana nui [temo'ananʉi] 'the big sea'. I don't know if the same distinction exists for aa vs ā.

Are you saying that Harlow says the short diphthongs don't exist, or just that ōi and ōu don't. Personally, I can't really hear a difference between the diphthongs and the non-diphthong pairs like ei. I gather that there is a measurable accoustic difference between the diphthongs and non-diphthongs - but it sounds like you're saying they're basically just an abstraction used in assigning stress. Is stress actually a little bit irregular or is it just that it's got really complicated rules?

Personally, I pronounce ou as [oʊ̯]. I also wouldn't go to close on the ai, au diphthongs; I think it more just reflects the realization of short a as [ɐ], like NZ English's CUT vowel.

Hm, I've definitely read that ai and au start higher than ae and ao, and with some speakers, I've heard this really clearly with ai, almost sounding like it starts with a schwa.

Stress generally falls on one of the last four morae in the word - on the last long vowel if there is one, on the last diphthong except word finally, and otherwise on the fourth to last mora.

Thanks! I'll update my post above.

Stress is generally assigned on a phrasal level and can be shifted as in te moana nui. There can also be a stress on the second to last mora of an utterance, hence the apparent final stress in tēnā koutou katoa 'greetings everyone'. But these rules are just generalisations and borrowings into English tend to be stressed on the second to last syllable, further confusing things.

Does moana nui function stresswise as one word? Do phrase final particles shift the stress too or only "bases"?

That drink driving ad is fantastic and was super popular here. Another goodie is this gem from the national news.

Haha, that's great. Reminds me of a couple of people who have been on Australian news. I can't think of what to search for though.

I think he is more nonspecific than indefinite - there are plenty of cases where Māori uses te or ngā where English uses a. Either way it is restricted to subject position or as the head of a predicate (rather than just after a preposition). John built a house is either expressed as i hanga whare a Hone (with whare 'house' incorporated into the verb phrase) or i hangaia he whare e Hone (with the verb in the passive).

Can you say I hanga a Hone i tētahi whare, or is that to emphatically specific?

I think saying that noun phrases are just put together is incorrect - instead he just happens to be the indefinite predicate marker as opposed to ko.

But if it can also occur in the subject, it's not explicitly a predicate marker, no?

Also Iwouldn't analyse ko te tāne rā he ariki as containing a relative clause, mainly because I don't think he predicate can be relativised.

Fair. I have seen strings of he phrases following each other and referring to the same entity though, but usually separated with commas and I assume that's simply apposition. Like, I've seen: He B te A, he C, he D , meaning A is a B, a C and a D. (Probably with a hoki or anō there - I don't remember. Anyway, thanks very much for your feedback! If you feel up to it, you could have a look at my Māori in the language practice thread.

[Nerulent]

The South Island dialect also had the change f > h as in the placename Akaroa from Hakaroa (std Whangaroa). [...]

Oh, I don't think I knew that, or that it was as widespread as the ng > k thing. I know there is f > h in Northlands though, yeah?

Hmm, that was from memory and I can't find anything on it now. I'll keep hunting and let you know. I didn't know about the Northland change

I am a bit sceptical of full on voicing and vowel loss in the far south though, as opposed to settlers mishearing unaspirated stops and reduced/voiceless vowels and/or corruptions of the original names.

Yeah, same, but aren't these kind of mishearings pretty much restricted to the south?

Yes but then the far south was basically unpopulated by Māori so there would be far less exposure to the correct forms and more chance for corruption.

Are you saying that Harlow says the short diphthongs don't exist, or just that ōi and ōu don't. Personally, I can't really hear a difference between the diphthongs and the non-diphthong pairs like ei. I gather that there is a measurable acoustic difference between the diphthongs and non-diphthongs - but it sounds like you're saying they're basically just an abstraction used in assigning stress. Is stress actually a little bit irregular or is it just that it's got really complicated rules?

Sorry I meant that those were the only long vowels, but that was from memory as well and was wrong. Harlow gives the diphthong inventory as: ae ai ao au ei eu oi ou oe and āe āi āo āu ēi ōu, but notes that it's not super clear cut and can differ between speakers and registers (as with stress assignment), and also that any short vowels together coalesce anyway (so I don't know if there really is an acoustic difference or not).

Apparently reduplicated akoako is always pronounced with initial stress, but reduplicated ohooho can be either [ˈoho.oho] or [oˈhoːho] (he doesn't mention an example with a possible diphthong like ipoipo unfortunately). Also, whaka- is the only prefix which coalesces with a following vowel as in whakaako [faˈkaːko] 'teach', whereas others like toko- don't e.g. tokoono 'six (people)' is always [tokoˈono].

Hm, I've definitely read that ai and au start higher than ae and ao, and with some speakers, I've heard this really clearly with ai, almost sounding like it starts with a schwa.
[...]
Does moana nui function stresswise as one word? Do phrase final particles shift the stress too or only "bases"?

You could well be right then with ai and au. Particles shift stress too (or rather stress is assigned to a phrase and the particles are included in that phrase). It's common across Polynesia, Tongan (with stress on the penultimate mora) has fále 'house', falé ni 'this house'. Tongan at least doesn't always distinguish long vowels and coarticulated vowels: pō 'night', poó ni 'tonight', maáma 'light', māmá ni 'this light'.

Can you say I hanga a Hone i tētahi whare, or is that to emphatically specific?

I couldn't tell you; I think at least it would be a bit marked, maybe emphasising that there's only one, or that you don't know which house he built.

I think saying that noun phrases are just put together is incorrect - instead he just happens to be the indefinite predicate marker as opposed to ko.

But if it can also occur in the subject, it's not explicitly a predicate marker, no?
[...]

Also Iwouldn't analyse ko te tāne rā he ariki as containing a relative clause, mainly because I don't think he predicate can be relativised.

Fair. I have seen strings of he phrases following each other and referring to the same entity though, but usually separated with commas and I assume that's simply apposition. Like, I've seen: He B te A, he C, he D , meaning A is a B, a C and a D. (Probably with a hoki or anō there - I don't remember.

Sorry I meant that it happens to be a predicate marker as well as an article; they're two somewhat separate usages. And yeah I would call that apposition except of clauses (which happen to only be one phrase). Māori isn't averse to apposition and argument dropping, with or without linking words such as hoki.

Anyway, thanks very much for your feedback! If you feel up to it, you could have a look at my Māori in the language practice thread.

Yes, I actually got halfway through a reply to one post and then lost it and didn't have the energy to redo it - I will try get round to it again though, it's great to see

[Nerulent]

Just found this passage:

The pair /a+V/ can be realised as a diphthong in reduplications, e.g. pāinaina ‘bask’ (and similar cases) is variously pronounced /paai.ˈnai.na/ and /paa.ˈi.na.i.na/, and similarly uaua ‘difficulty’ is heard as both /u.ˈau.a/ and /ˈu.a.u.a/; further, /ai/ is always a diphthong where the /i/ is the initial phoneme of the passive suffix, e.g. arohaina ‘be loved’ (/a.ro.ˈhai.na/). The sequence /a+V/ is less likely to be a diphthong where the /a/ is the final phoneme of the prefix whaka-; however, the extent to which the word so derived has been lexi- calised, that is, the extent to which the speaker is aware of a morpheme break, plays a role. Biggs (1961:12) draws attention to the difference in pronunication of whakairo ‘carved pattern’ (/fa.ˈkai.ro/) and whakairi (cause hang) ‘hang up (tr.)’ (fa.ka.ˈi.ri/). Nonetheless, this is a point where variable behaviour is observable, and while whakairo is never pronounced as a tetrasyllable, forms like whakairi or whakaeke ‘attack, approach’ are encountered with trisyllabic realisations. As for sequences of /a+V/ at junctures of bases and particles, in either order, diphthongs are rarely if ever formed. An exception is the greeting kia ora (TA healthy), which is usually pronounced /ki.ˈao.ra/. However, the same phrase used as a predicate meaning ‘that (someone) should be healthy’ is always /ki.a.ˈo.ra/, just as tōna ingoa ‘his/her name’ is /too.na.ˈi.ŋo.a/ for all speakers and styles.

For the pair /V1V2/ (V1 not /a/) diphthongisation of the eligible sequences of this shape is really restricted to morpheme-internal environments. There is some variation within reduplications, giving alternate pronunciations like /ˈu.to.u.to/ ∼ /u.ˈtou.to/ for utouto ‘use vindictively’ (from uto ‘revenge’).

[Imralu]

Yes but then the far south was basically unpopulated by Māori so there would be far less exposure to the correct forms and more chance for corruption.

That makes sense!

Sorry I meant that those were the only long vowels, but that was from memory as well and was wrong. Harlow gives the diphthong inventory as: ae ai ao au ei eu oi ou oe and āe āi āo āu ēi ōu, but notes that it's not super clear cut and can differ between speakers and registers (as with stress assignment), and also that any short vowels together coalesce anyway (so I don't know if there really is an acoustic difference or not).

So, for the short diphthongs, it basically looks like any combination where the vowel height rises, plus oe, and the long ones seem like they don't want to cross from front to back or vice versa (i.e. no ēu ōe ōi).

Apparently reduplicated akoako is always pronounced with initial stress, but reduplicated ohooho can be either [ˈoho.oho] or [oˈhoːho] (he doesn't mention an example with a possible diphthong like ipoipo unfortunately). Also, whaka- is the only prefix which coalesces with a following vowel as in whakaako [faˈkaːko] 'teach', whereas others like toko- don't e.g. tokoono 'six (people)' is always [tokoˈono].

Somewhat off topic, but the Fijian version of this prefix vaka- becomes vā- before other velar consonants.

Hm, I've definitely read that ai and au start higher than ae and ao, and with some speakers, I've heard this really clearly with ai, almost sounding like it starts with a schwa.
[...]
Does moana nui function stresswise as one word? Do phrase final particles shift the stress too or only "bases"?

You could well be right then with ai and au. Particles shift stress too (or rather stress is assigned to a phrase and the particles are included in that phrase). It's common across Polynesia, Tongan (with stress on the penultimate mora) has fále 'house', falé ni 'this house'. Tongan at least doesn't always distinguish long vowels and coarticulated vowels: pō 'night', poó ni 'tonight', maáma 'light', māmá ni 'this light'.

Ok. I knew that particles took stress sometimes like in i á koe and that some particles are pronounced long or short depending on the following sounds (again as in i ā koe). Does this mean that adding a word like anō with its three morae shifts the phrase stress to the final syllable of the preceding word? Is there any reason other than convention that phrases are not regarded as words and Polynesian languages as rich in prefixes and suffixes rather than particles?

The male presenter on Tōku Reo pronounces ki hea with stress on the ki? Is this right? He's also the one who pronounces the ou as something like [oʊ̯] ... I've noticed the female presenter doesn't - she says ki héa, but she also sometimes pronounces tuakana as tuākana in the singular, so I kind of trust him a bit more than her.

Anyway, thanks very much for your feedback! If you feel up to it, you could have a look at my Māori in the language practice thread.

Yes, I actually got halfway through a reply to one post and then lost it and didn't have the energy to redo it - I will try get round to it again though, it's great to see [/quote] Thanks, and yeah, understandable!

BTW, I'm really curious about this now. Eruera Rerekura did another story in the Whanganui/Taranaki dialect. He doesn't usually - so I really wonder what leads to him deciding to speak one way or the other and which one is his natural way of speaking. He says really clearly e taʻotaʻo ana, e mōʻiotia ʻwānuitia ana etc., and so many other things I don't understand but where I hear lots of glottal stops either between vowels or before [w].

[Nerulent]

One last correction on stress (and even then I don't think I've gotten it quite right): words ending in two long vowels are stressed on the first of those, so kākā 'parrot' is stressed on the first syllable.

Ok. I knew that particles took stress sometimes like in i á koe and that some particles are pronounced long or short depending on the following sounds (again as in i ā koe). Does this mean that adding a word like anō with its three morae shifts the phrase stress to the final syllable of the preceding word? Is there any reason other than convention that phrases are not regarded as words and Polynesian languages as rich in prefixes and suffixes rather than particles?

The male presenter on Tōku Reo pronounces ki hea with stress on the ki? Is this right? He's also the one who pronounces the ou as something like [oʊ̯] ... I've noticed the female presenter doesn't - she says ki héa, but she also sometimes pronounces tuakana as tuākana in the singular, so I kind of trust him a bit more than her.

As far as I know, particles preceding a base are never stressed, except in the case of a particle ending in a before a base beginning with a as in ka aroha [ˈkaːroha] (more commonly [kaˈaroha]). Maybe there are other exceptions though, perhaps a koe is treated as a phonological word here. I would be surprised if kí hea was correct though. I must admit I don't have much exposure to actual usage though; my knowledge is mostly through grammar books.

BTW, I'm really curious about this now. Eruera Rerekura did another story in the Whanganui/Taranaki dialect. He doesn't usually - so I really wonder what leads to him deciding to speak one way or the other and which one is his natural way of speaking. He says really clearly e taʻotaʻo ana, e mōʻiotia ʻwānuitia ana etc., and so many other things I don't understand but where I hear lots of glottal stops either between vowels or before [w].

Wow yeah, that is really striking. Apparently he is from Whanganui so it's most likely his native dialect. It would be a bit surprising otherwise. I'm not sure what made him speak dialect in that particular story though.

[Imralu]

Personal Nouns
Nouns referring to people (as well as tribes, companies and anything which is humanised by being given a name - but not places!) are personal nouns. The grammar of personal nouns is a little bit different. They are not preceded by the articles he, te or ngā - although some personal names include Te as a part of their name, in which case it is always capitalised, and most tribal names begin with Ngāti or, before /t/, frequently Ngāi, which I'm assuming is related to ngā. Instead, personal nouns are preceded by the personal article a when they are:

• the subject
• preceded by one of the prepositions that end with i: i, ki, kei, hei

If the personal noun is preceded by ko, however, a is not used.

• Ko tēnei a Rāwiri. = This is David.
• Ko Rāwiri tēnei. = This is David.

Locative Prepositions:
Since I've mentioned the pronouns that end in i, I'll briefly handle them here. We'll meet i and ki in their roles as more or less accusative and dative markers respectively, when we get to verbs, but for now I just want to mention the locational uses of i, kei and hei. These can kind of be regarded as prepositions that have tense. Kei indicates present location, i indicates past location (and I think it's an extention of this that made it also mean "from") and hei indicates future location.

• Kei te whare a Rāwiri. = David is at the house.
• I te whare a Rāwiri. = David was at the house.
• Hei te whare a Rāwiri. = David will be at the house.
• Kei a Rāwiri te kī. = David has the key. (The key is at David.)
• I a Rāwiri te kī. = David had the key. (The key was at David.)
• Hei a Rāwiri te kī. = David will have the key. (The key will be at David.)

Personal Pronouns:
Personal pronouns distinguish singular, dual and plural numbers and the 1st person (other than singular) distinguishes between exclusive and inclusive.

Code: Select all

             SINGULAR  DUAL   PLURAL
1st Excl.    au/ahau   māua   mātou
1st Incl.    -         tāua   tātou
2nd          koe       kōrua  koutou
3rd          ia        rāua   rātou

Au and ahau are both common variants for "I", "me". Some dialects prefer one or the other but a lot of speakers use them interchangeably. There are also other variants such as wau, but they're much less common than au and ahau There are also various dialectal variants such as kourua for kōrua and in some dialects, all the -ou's on the end of the plural pronouns are -au.

Personal pronouns always refer to people (or humanised animals/things). For example, ia is not used to mean "it". The meaning of it is either achieved through context or, if it is really necessary to include it, a demonstrative.

Personal pronouns are not preceded by the personal article a when they are the subject of the sentence (although a ia is colloquially common in modern Māori), but they must take a when preceded by any of the prepositions ending in i. When this is the case, before the short pronouns koe and ia, the a is pronounced long and takes the phrase stress (but is still written as though it were short). For example i a ia is pronounced [i.ˈaː.i.a]. Before au, this a simply blends with the following vowel, making i a au pronounced as if it were i āu. The variant ahau is an exception to the personal pronouns in that it is not preceded by a. You simply say i ahau etc,

• Ko (ah)au a Rāwiri. = I am David.
• Ko Rāwiri (ah)au. = I am David.
• Ko Irihāpeti koe. = You are Elizabeth.

• Kei te whare ahau. = I am at the house.
• I te whare māua. = S/he and I were at the house.
• Hei te whare ia. = S/he will be at the house.
• Kei a ia te kī. = S/he has the key. (The key is at David.)
• I a au / i ahau te kī. = I had the key. (The key was at David.)
• Hei a kōrua te kī. = You two will have the key. (The key will be at you two.)

Personal pronouns are also used along with ko to link people together like "and".

• māua ko Irihāpeti = Elizabeth and I
• kōrua ko Rāriwi = you (one person) and David
• koutou ko Rāwiri = you (more than one person) and David
• Irihāpeti rāua ko Rāwiri = Elizabeth and David
• Ko Irihāpeti rāua ko Rāwiri ēnei. = These are Elizabeth and David.
• Kei a Irihāpeti rāua ko Rāwiri ngā kī. = Elizabeth and David have the keys.

I don't even know if it's natural English anymore to introduce plural people with "These" ... Would you say "These are Elizabeth and David" or would you split it and say "This is Elizabeth and this is David"? My native speaker instincts are giving me conflicting feedback now.

[jal]

Great to read this all. I'm not too familiar with Austronesian languages, so everything is freshly interesting :).

Some formatting and copy/paste errors in the above post:
1)

Ko Rāwiri tēnei. = This is David.

- it seems the purple and blue of the English are swapped.
2)

Kei a ia te kī. = S/he has the key. (The key is at David.)
I a au / i ahau te kī. = I had the key. (The key was at David.)
Hei a kōrua te kī. = You two will have the key. (The key will be at David.)

- David is copy/pasted from above, and doesn't seem to apply here.
3)

i āia.

- underline?
4)

māua ko Irihāpeti = Elizabeth and I
kōrua ko Rāriwi = you (one person) and David
koutou ko Rāwiri = you (more than one person) and David
Irihāpeti rāua ko Rāwiri = Elizabeth and David

- colours missing?

Mmm, I think there was one other thing, but perhaps not. Can't find it now. Anyways, would love to read more.


JAL

[Imralu]

Great to read this all. I'm not too familiar with Austronesian languages, so everything is freshly interesting .

Some formatting and copy/paste errors in the above post:

Thanks! I've updated accordingly. I still haven't updated the stuff in the original post about stress following the discussion with Nerulent though.

3)

i āia.

- underline?

Yeah, was meant to indicate stress. When designing my custom keyboard I didn't think to add macrons + acute vowels. (I did add ȫ ǟ though ... even though I don't know why I'd ever need them ... OH HI, GROẞGESCHRIEBENES ESZETT AND CAPITAL EŊ!)

4)

māua ko Irihāpeti = Elizabeth and I
kōrua ko Rāriwi = you (one person) and David
koutou ko Rāwiri = you (more than one person) and David
Irihāpeti rāua ko Rāwiri = Elizabeth and David

- colours missing?

Well, I have been using the colours to show predicate and subject and since these are incomplete sentences, they're neither. You're right though, it does look a bit ugly next to the colours!

Mmm, I think there was one other thing, but perhaps not. Can't find it now. Anyways, would love to read more.

I think I'm going to get to possession next. Verbs will come after that I guess, but before that maybe I should get to how to negate verbless sentences because negation is complicated.

[Imralu]

Possession

Possession with a and o.

The prepositions a and o are essentially equivalent to "of". The choice between a and o depends on the dominance relationship between the possessor and the possession. It's not quite an alienable/inalienable relationship although it's similar. You could regard it as such, however you may have to take into account more exceptions that way than in regarding it as dominance-determined. In general, it can be said that:

• the preposition a introduces dominant possessors which are somehow in control of the possession while
• the preposition o introduces subordinate possessors who are somehow not in control of the possession.

As a handy mnemonic, I like to think of o as almost like "over" (connected by the spelling) and a as almost like "under" (connected by the pronunciation).

• ngā mātua o te wahine = the woman's parents / the parents of ("over") the woman
• ngā tamariki a te wahine = the woman's children / the children of ("under") the woman

It's a fairly complicated system with exceptions here and there, so I'll try to explain it as best I can.

When talking about human relations, older generations and the same generation (siblings, cousins etc.) are dominant (o) while younger generations are subordinate (a), as in the examples above. Friends (hoa) are dominant but a husband (tāne) or wife (wahine) is subordinate. I've seen conflicting information about non-married lovers.

• te hoa o te wahine = the woman's friend / the friend of ("over") the woman
• te tāne a te wahine = the woman's husband / the husband of ("under") the woman

Slaves and captive animals (both of which have many words but both can be referred to as mōkai, which looks like it derives from "for food") are also subordinate, however horses represent an exception here because all modes of transport are dominant. I think horses can be subordinate when not being regarded as transport, but I seem to be finding conflicting things.

• te kau a te whānau = the family's cow
• te hōiho o te whānau = the family's horse
• te motokā / waka o te whānau = the family's car / canoe/vehicle

Food and drink is subordinate except for drinking water (wai), which is dominant.

• te pia a te tāne = the man's beer
• te wai o te tāne = the man's water

Moveable possessions are subordinate, except for items of clothing, which are dominant.

• te waea a te taitama = the young man's phone
• te rorohiko a te taitamāhine = the young woman's computer
• ngā pōtae o ngā taitamariki = the young people's hats

Immovable possessions (houses, land etc.) are dominant.

• te whare o te whānau = the family's house
• te whenua o te iwi = the tribe's land

Parts of things and characteristics are dominant.

• te māhunga o te ika = the fish's head
• te rahi o ngā uaua o tēnei heihei = the size of this chicken's muscles / the size of the muscles of this chicken
• te whanonga o te manu = the bird's behaviour
• te pai o te tangata = the good qualities/goodness of the person

Actions that are actively performed by the possessor are subordinate. Nouns derived from the verbs denoting passive actions and states are dominant.

• te kōhuru a ngā Māori i ngā Moriori = the Māori's murder of the Moriori [i = accusative]
• te kōhuru o ngā Moriori e ngā Māori = the murder of the Moriori by the Māori [e = ergative/agentive]

There are also some interesting cases such as these:

te whakaahua o Rāwiri = the photograph of David (i.e. David is in the photo)
te whakaahua a Rāwiri = David's photograph (i.e. David took or owns the photo)
te waiata o Irihāpeti = Elizabeth's song / the song about Elizabeth
te waiata a Irihāpeti = Elizabeth's song / the song by Elizabeth (she wrote or sings it)

Basically, I think it's easiest to remember to use o except in the following circumstances:

• relatives of younger generations
• spouses
• subordinate people (employees etc.), servants, slaves, domestic animals - EXCEPT HORSES - mode of transport
• food and drink - EXCEPT WATER
• moveable inanimate possessions - EXCEPT CLOTHING OR MODES OF TRANSPORT
• actions actively performed by the possessor (not performed on the possessor, and not states without agency)

I think I'll start a new post to go deeper beyond just a and o, because there's still quite a bit more to cover in terms of how these prepositions mix with pronouns and articles.

A couple of little notes about some vocabulary here. Just random little things that I find cool:

• Kau "cow" is an English loan. Because of the pronunciation of the <u> element in modern Māori, it's basically pronounced not like "cow" but like "co" as spoken by a New-Zealander or Australian. If it were borrowed today, now that the vowels of Māori have shifted a bit, kao would be much closer.
• Hōiho "horse" is another English loan. Because Māori completely lacks sibilants (except for [t͡s] as an allophone of /t/ before /i/ or /u/ for some speakers, which I think is a modern feature), there are a variety of ways that they have been loaned and a common way is with an /h/ with an adjacent /i/. Often this /i/ only appears if an epenthetic vowel is needed (as in hāhi from "church", where there is only an /i/ next to the second /h/, and hapa from "supper", where there is no /i/ at all), but in hōiho it's there even though no epenthesis is needed. Also, the common pattern of epenthetic vowels mirroring the adjacent vowels (as in pūtu "boot" and aihikirīmi "ice cream") looks like it has been used here to give the final /o/ and shows that this /i/ has, in a way, been completely disregarded as a vowel here and been regarded as a transportation of the /s/. Another funny loan is kāihe for "donke", which allegedly comes from the second syllable of "jackass".
• Rorohiko "computer" essentially means "electric brain"!
• Whenua is cognate to the Vanua in Vanuatu ("standing land" = whenua tū) and the Fijian Island Vanua Levu.