Ancient West Africa and Bantu Conlang 5 6 2020: Quick Grammar, Texts with Grammar Notes, Etc

[Bob]

Ancient West Africa and Bantu Conlang 5 6 2020: Quick Grammar, Texts with Grammar Notes

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A Quick Grammar of the "Approximated Ancient Bantu Language Weds 5 6 2020"
Written Mon 5 11 2020.




I made this for the past month or two's studies in the famous conlang "Atlantean Language" by the guy who made Klingon. I'm translating texts from medieval West Africa and wanted a parallel language to show my own skills at conlanging, language science, anthropology, etc.

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SVO

noun.singular-NOUN-my-of

noun.plural-NOUN-my-of

NOUN noun-ADJECTIVE-my-of

preposition noun.singular-NOUN-my

noun-NOUN NOUN-of

subject-prefixes-VERB-direct.object-indirect.object

...

Here word roots are in capital letters.
noun- : Noun Class Maker

...

Subordinate clause order: I don't know yet.

Written letters and implied phonemes:

a e i o u

b d f g h j k l m n

p r s t v w y z

ch dh gh kh gn' ny

sh th

Phonology notes:

The words are very CVnCV with very few consonant clusters. So words are quite long. Bantu languages do this notable thing where words start with nasal-first consonant clusters.

Grammar notes:

Bantu branch languages are in the Niger-Congo language family.

( The Kwa branch languages are in the Niger-Congo language family also.

They're from West Africa, maybe mostly Ghana.

They're much more typologically analytic, though.

The invented Pakuni Language from the hit 1970s sci fi kids series "Land of the Lost" is based on Kwa languages. I'm also a unique expert on that language, but one of two with Professor Mark Zender of Tulane University in Louisiana, expert in Mayan Hieroglyphics. )

Swahili notably does not mark its verb for object, or not much. But I read that most West African Bantu languages do in the Language in Africa book. Plus, I wanted that in the language as a contrast to Pakuni and most other languages I've been studying and inventing. I haven't worked with Bantu languages much but have done a little work with the bilingual Bantu language "Epic of Mwindo" from the Congo and recently got a huge bilingual collection of convoluted Zulu fairy tales and or folklore. I do more with Hausa, mostly etymology, a little with Click languages and hopefully more one day, and some recently with Kwa languages like Akan.

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Bibliography:

I plan to upload my notes with more details.

Teach Yourself Swahili Dictionary.

Most of the words are just straight Swahili. Only some key words are actual Swahili, the rest are random words I picked out and used for totally different words. I should chose words somewhat related in meaning in the future, to approximate historic language change. I might but that's a lot of further effort.

Teach Yourself Swahili.

Most of the language's grammar is a simplified version of what's in here.

Language in Africa, Gregersen.

Some of the language's grammar is based on this book.

World Lexicon of Grammaticalization, Heine.

"Onward, Heinz!"
( This is a reference to a line from the movie where the hero's employer calls for his driver to keep going. It's actually a joke on Heinz ketchup and maybe on how the idea for the movie, 2001's Disney's Atlantis The Lost Empire, and first thought in a Mexican restaurant. )

Some of the language's grammar is based on this book. It features many glossed sentences of a wide variety of types from major and minor languages all over the world, including Bantu and Kwa languages. I use this book all the time for language invention experimentation. I bought it in Siberian northeast China back in 2009 near the border of North Korea from a small bookstore specializing in linguistics books. Its title and preface are bilingual and it's in English. It's in good shape considering all the travel. (Of course, there was a Korean restaurant and gangsters involved and a massive drinking contest.)

Introduction to Typology, Whaley.

I just wanted to list this one, I didn't use it that much for this language.

I use this book all the time for language invention experimentation. I got it at the same place as the last one.

African Language Structures, Welmers.

I just wanted to list this one, I didn't use it that much for this language.

The other one is more concise and easier to use when making a simplified grammar of an invented language. I had the same experience a year ago when expanding and exploring the Pakuni Language. I also had other books, notably one surveying all the different languages of Ghana.

Portraits of Culture Ethnographic Originals, Ember: Page 17, Efe pygmy people of NE Congo in south Africa, c 1980.

For old times' sake, I read some about Congo bow and arrow hunter gatherers (Efe pygmies) vs net hunter gatherers vs farmers for lifestyles. I read a ton of different ethnography in my free time in college. But I'm not sure how much of it I remember anymore. I read ethnography but not without wincing because I have eccentric stances on the ethics of anthropology, tying in with why I'm not an academic. To me, not everything in print is fair game and just because you can get permission does not mean you should publish it. The world also is not a petri dish and I am aware of concepts of like this. But the world probably views you as something like a petri dish, whether you want to go out there and "explore" that or not. There is a very real limit to books.

Image:

A "postcard from Timbuktu" in imitation of a popular c 1950s onward postcard style.

http://mrmackabroad.blogspot.com/2014/1 ... buktu.html

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This post is based on one I did to my facebook group for the Atlantean Language, the only and oldest of its kind, 20 years old. I was given charge of it by its founder back in about 2007, a year after I did the bulk of the grunt work necessary for a full decipherment and description of the language. Links to which can be found on my homepage or from my other recent posts.

Atlantis the Lost Empire Atlantean Language by Dr. Marc Okrand
https://www.facebook.com/groups/377768309042171/

A Quick Grammar of the "Approximated Ancient Bantu Language Weds 5 6 2020"
Written Mon 5 11 2020.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/3777683 ... 376943585/

Here's my homepage. A bit disorganized. But worth it. I'll clean it up in the next month. Maybe.
https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... =flipcard

[bradrn]

Looks good so far! A couple of questions:

SVO

noun.singular-NOUN-my-of

noun.plural-NOUN-my-of

noun noun-ADJECTIVE-my-of

preposition noun.singular-NOUN-my

noun-NOUN NOUN-of

subject-prefixes-VERB-direct.object-indirect.object

Subordinate clause order: I don't know yet.

I assume this section is just specifying word order, right? It would be nice if that were a bit clearer in your post.

Also, when you say ‘noun-NOUN NOUN-of’, what’s the difference between ‘noun’ and ‘NOUN’?

Written letters and implied phonemes:

a e i o u

b d f g h j k l m n

p r s t v w y z

ch dh gh kh gn' ny

sh th

Which phoneme does each letter/digraph represent? It would help a lot if you gave IPA values.

… Bantu languages do this notable thing where words start with nasal-first consonant clusters.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that just prenasalisation?

( The Kwa branch languages are in the Niger-Congo language family also.

They're from West Africa, maybe mostly Ghana.

They're much more typologically analytic, though.

I was actually wondering recently if there were any analytic Niger-Congo languages outside Yoruboid, so this is quite useful for me — thanks!

Swahili notably does not mark its verb for object, or not much.

Are you sure about this? I’m pretty sure Swahili is well known for its polypersonal agreement. Even a random grammar I found has plenty of examples:

ananipenda s/he loves me
simwoni I don’t see him
tunamfahamu we know her

(Source: Swahili Learners’ Reference Grammar, by Thompson and Schleicher.)

[sasasha]

The words are very CVnCV with very few consonant clusters. So words are quite long.

Interesting, do you mean all words (/roots?) are CVnCV, or that that is their maximum weight, or that they tend to conform to that pattern... or something else?

Having a nasal inside all roots would be an unusual concept, but could be fun - e.g. can it be deleted for any reason, and what happens if so?

Or did you mean to use some brackets there? In that case an easier way to present this might be to say something like "roots are usually composed of two syllables of the form (C)V(n)" - or whatever your actual rule is.

[Vardelm]

Edited for reasons.

[bradrn]

Edited for reasons.

Oh, god. Has Bob’s writing style become contagious now? Let’s hope it doesn’t spread any further…

(But, to be fair to Bob, this particular post of his seems to have avoided this sort of language. I hope he can keep it up — it’s much more pleasant to read when he doesn’t do this sort of thing!)

[sasasha]

(But, to be fair to Bob, this particular post of his seems to have avoided this sort of language. I hope he can keep it up — it’s much more pleasant to read when he doesn’t do this sort of thing!)

Agreed, hence I gave it some genuine engagement.

[Frislander]

Well it's progress I suppose, now we need to get to work on instilling the value of following a common set of notation principles for description to help us understand the above mess, which shouldn't be too hard given his academic record...

[Bob]

Well, however anyone wants to present the grammar of their conlang, that's fine with me. I've read and understood tons of scientific grammars and non-scientific grammars, so I can handle whatever anyone has time for.

I'll thank and congratulate them and ask any intelligent questions if I have them.

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I have a reasonable tolerance and patience for criticism of my scholarship. However, if people just reply and tell me that this is a mess, things like this, that's disrespectful and inconsiderate in my book and they're going to get blocked by me.

The above grammar is what I had time to write for this conlang. If a given member of this group can't appreciate the amount of time and study that goes into a thing like the above, there are limits to my patience with that sort of thing.

This is not a dissertation.

I'm not being paid to do this.

And I generally do write to reach both a non-language scientist audience and a language scientist audience.

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And exactly when was the last post to Zompist Bboard about Niger-Congo languages, either for conlangs or for natural languages?

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I'm not going to wade through all the discouragement. I write it how I write it and if I don't get respectful replies, I don't see them, because I blocked their user.

If I don't want to write -PERSON for -my or -GENITIVE for -of, so what?

Isn't it obvious?

I can guess what's going on with these replies.

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One problem with Zompist Bboard is that people whom you've blocked can still read and even blemish (and worse!) your post. I guess that's a price you pay for fame and skill: Somewhere people without skill or without perspective are going to write things that hopefully you will never read. And which people with skill or with persective may read but will dismiss immediately as being written without skill and or without perspective.

[KathTheDragon]

And I generally do write to reach both a non-language scientist audience and a language scientist audience.

Consider that your audience here is for all intents and purposes the latter, and write accordingly. Writing for both audiences is just going to be condescending, as if you think we need all these things explained to us like we're five-year-olds.

[Bob]

Consider that your audience here is for all intents and purposes the latter, and write accordingly. Writing for both audiences is just going to be condescending, as if you think we need all these things explained to us like we're five-year-olds.

I write my posts for post facebook and zompist bboard all at the same time.

Also, I don't have time to look up the exact terminology for all of this. I think it's based quite closely on Swahili, though, so it should be obvious for anyone who's studied any Bantu language.

I get your suggestion.

But I've also got time limits and what I ask of language scientists by presenting a grammar in this way is not at all unreasonable. I don't know how many of you are actual language scientists or what your specializations are, due to you all being anonymous. All of the above replies that I found excessive, they could all be by people who lack skills or lack perspective to reply in a manner sufficiently agreeable to myself.

Also, where is your conlang grammar that's very non-Indo-European? I've got some time, I'll go look. Do you have a website too that I could visit, to see what sort of conlanger and language scientist you are? Me, I'm happy to meet and interact with other conlangers.

But withing reason.

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I have hardly any idea who any of these people are. Me, though, I've read tremendous amounts of grammars and primers and have no qualms whatsoever about having things explained or having things simplified. So, I'm glad to help out people who have a poverty of such useful experience. But there are situations where I would prefer to help them out by blocking them and maybe unblocking them in a few years to see if they've made any progress.

[Bob]

... like we're five-year-olds.

Also, Kath, if I ever talk to people like they're five year old's, ahem, my apologies. But there may be something to that. Ask yourself: Who accidentally talks to adults like they're five year old's?

[Bob]

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I just looked through a ton of your posts on the new Zompist Bboard. None of them are about conlanging and they're all about Indo-European languages or politics.

Huh. What am I missing? Got a website or something where I can see your work?

I'll go check the old Zompist Bboard.

[bradrn]

I have a reasonable tolerance and patience for criticism of my scholarship. However, if people just reply and tell me that this is a mess, things like this, that's disrespectful and inconsiderate in my book and they're going to get blocked by me. … If a given member of this group can't appreciate the amount of time and study that goes into a thing like the above, there are limits to my patience with that sort of thing.

I’m sorry, but you’ve just used up all my good-will by saying this. Throughout all my replies to you, I have tried my very best to be as charitable towards you as possible. I have generally assumed that you are acting in good faith, that you have the qualifications you do have, and that the more annoying parts of your writing are just a personal quirk — assumptions which at various points have gotten me roundly criticised by other members of this board. And that includes your post here: there are many, many things which I could have criticised about it, but I purposely did not, and limited my reply to asking for clarifications for a few things which confused me. It looks like sasasha replied in much the same way — with absolutely no criticism, and restricting his post to asking for clarifications. And, sure, Vardelm replied a bit sarcastically, but you will note that I took your side in defending you against that. (And sasasha agreed with me.) There was exactly one person (Frislander) who said that your post is a ‘mess’ — and that was in passing. So it is unfair in the extreme to characterise us as people who ‘just reply and tell you that this is a mess’, and ‘can't appreciate the amount of time and study that goes into a thing like the above’. (By the way, I could make something like this in 5–10 minutes — and I’m happy to prove that if you want.) I’m sorry, but we are not going to give unconditional praise to everything you do, and if you expect us to shower your every post with praise, you will be very disappointed. That’s not how the ZBB works. Critical evaluation of other peoples’ work is a key part of what we do here, and if this bothers you, then this isn’t the place for you. To quote the For new members post:

[Avoid] freaking out over criticism. People here are... how shall I put it... slow to praise. If you can't handle negative reactions, don't post your work. Most of the time, the critic has a point, and they've taken the time to look your stuff over... give them some slack and try not to be defensive.

And exactly when was the last post to Zompist Bboard about Niger-Congo languages, either for conlangs or for natural languages?

And how does this matter?

If I don't want to write -PERSON for -my or -GENITIVE for -of, so what?

Isn't it obvious?

Um, no, it isn’t obvious. We use formal linguistic terminology for a purpose: namely, to reduce confusion by giving precise names for things. To an extent, it is possible to substitute less formal words, but only if you compensate by including more explanatory text. You have presented this conlang in a way which contains pretty much no explanatory text; therefore, you will have to compensate by being more precise in your terminology.

But I've also got time limits and what I ask of language scientists by presenting a grammar in this way is not at all unreasonable. I don't know how many of you are actual language scientists or what your specializations are, due to you all being anonymous.

Pretty much none of us are actual ‘language scientists’ or linguists. But all of us have a very good knowledge of at least the essentials of linguistics, so please treat us as if we were all proper linguists.

All of the above replies that I found excessive, they could all be by people who lack skills or lack perspective to reply in a manner sufficiently agreeable to myself.

Please see my rant above for why our replies were not excessive. But in case it needs to be said again: my and sasasha’s posts contained absolutely no criticism, as we restricted ourselves to asking for clarifications. Frislander’s post criticised yours, but only in passing. Vardelm’s post is the only one which could possibly be characterised as ‘excessive’ — and I specifically defended you against that, with sasasha agreeing with me.

And I generally do write to reach both a non-language scientist audience and a language scientist audience.

Consider that your audience here is for all intents and purposes the latter, and write accordingly. Writing for both audiences is just going to be condescending, as if you think we need all these things explained to us like we're five-year-olds.

Seconded.

... like we're five-year-olds.

Also, Kath, if I ever talk to people like they're five year old's, ahem, my apologies. But there may be something to that. Ask yourself: Who accidentally talks to adults like they're five year old's?

Huh? What on Earth is this supposed to mean?

(And by the way, Kath meant that you should talk to us as if we’re linguistics experts rather than as if we’re random people in the street.)

[Bob]

...

I didn't see many posts about conlangs or non-Indo-European languages on the old Zompist Bboard by you, either. So you got a website or something that I'm missing?

Google:
KathTheDragon site:http://www.incatena.org/

[Bob]

...

I found this post where someone actually posted a conlang grammar and you posted some replies.

http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43988

<<
Dama Diwan
Post subject: tube bo, kije bo & ALL GRAMMAR OF DAMA DIWANPostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:56 am

tube bo naja kije bo =
ACTIVE VOICE VERSUS PASSIVE VOICE
Before we see some examples, note that all the suffixes are:
1) -o, marker of nouns
2) -on =object before the verb.
3) –e =active verb, not followed by its object; so, if something is after –e, this verb (with its modifiers, if any) is DEPENDENT to the following (much like an active participle).
>>

<<
KathTheDragon
It's a fun idea to play with, but... real languages don't work like that.
>>

[Znex]

...

I didn't see many posts about conlangs or non-Indo-European languages on the old Zompist Bboard by you, either. So you got a website or something that I'm missing?

Google:
KathTheDragon site:http://www.incatena.org/

Mate, a lot of us are doing work in the background still even if we don't post about it frequently. I haven't posted about my conlangs in years because I can't agree with myself how to present material and I keep changing details midway or switching projects. In fact most of my personal work recently has just been chasing after scholarly work on ancient languages and language contact and change (that's my personal interest ) without even working on any conlangs besides; similar to what you've been talking about doing.

The difference for many of us is: whether we post about our conlanging work or not, we don't post or boast about how f*cking good we are at it or not. I suspect many of us don't like people who boast about themselves, especially when they don't have much to back up their boasts with. Heck many of us have personal reasons as to not boast about ourselves, whether we're worthy of such boasts or not.

I guess that's all to say: if you go on about how awesome is your B.Arts and all the stuff you've done, back it up! Show us what you've done, don't just talk about it. I'd personally love to see what you've been doing in more detail, not just hearing about it. But many of us would be appreciate it if you took a step back and just practised a bit of humility about all this.

[Bob]

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I've done plenty of posts and they're easy to view by clicking on my profile and clicking the list of them.

I have a website listing links to my works.

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

I have a facebook group on conlangs, one of the largest, that I've run for 5 years and which I've both linked to and is linked to from my homepage:

Conlangs and Linguistics, Constructed Languages, Invented Languages
https://www.facebook.com/groups/conlangsforfree/

[Bob]

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I don't know who you are and you say these things to me?

I've been conlanging and studying conlangs for 15 years. I even posted on this group as early as 2007.

I write what I do about my ability as a conlanger and understanding of conlanging from honesty and dedication to conlanging as a subdiscipline of the science of linguistics.

If honesty and scientific excellence is not "humility" to you, consider that others approach reality in a different manner.

Don't hassle me about it or I'll block you.

I've made clear in other replies that a lot goes into what I write and I don't have time for random anonymous people of unclear ability or understanding of linguistics or conlanging to pop out of nowhere and discourage me, state the obvious about my posts, or even display lack of ability.

I've studied others' conlangs extensively and studied about conlanging extensively. And this is in addition to extensive research into language science, plus the degree.

[dewrad]

Quick PSA for my fellow Brits who are confused about this whole 3.0 GPA thing. Turns out it’s equivalent to a 2:2 (also known as “a desmond” or “the degree classification that won’t allow you to do a masters”)

Shout out to my peeps who graduated with a first, on that note.

[KathTheDragon]

Also, where is your conlang grammar that's very non-Indo-European? I've got some time, I'll go look. Do you have a website too that I could visit, to see what sort of conlanger and language scientist you are? Me, I'm happy to meet and interact with other conlangers.

Here as it happens. It's incomplete and out of date (I'm actually in the middle of preparing the actual full site, and haven't quite got around to finishing that up, so updating the written-down grammar is not a priority), and I'm not very good at writing in this style in the first place.

To be honest, I don't really share my work here anymore. I used to back when I was still new here, and didn't get any useful feedback so I stopped, and now I more or less exclusively share things in Discord servers where I'm all but guaranteed someone to comment on my work.

Who accidentally talks to adults like they're five year old's?

You. You do. That's the whole point of that clause. You constantly write as if we're people who have no idea who Mark fucking Okrand is, for pity sake, or will be wowed by your degree. I know I'm not.

I don't know how many of you are actual language scientists or what your specializations are, due to you all being anonymous. All of the above replies that I found excessive, they could all be by people who lack skills or lack perspective to reply in a manner sufficiently agreeable to myself.

As many others have said time and again (so I won't labour this point) why is this relevant? Why does it matter what we did at school, and not what we've learnt over all? I majored in mathematics, but I've got enough of a broad knowledge of linguistics, particularly historical linguistics, that I have people who do have linguistics degrees asking me things all the time, and trusting I know what I'm talking about. Hell, people tell me I should try publishing actual scholarly articles, so they must think I'm competent enough for that.

Don't hassle me about it or I'll block you.

Go on then. Block me. Block Znex. Block people until there's nobody left who cares enough to reply. Your work is fairly mediocre by the by, so nobody's going to give you the praise you're seeking. Run along back to Facebook, it's seemingly doing well enough for you. No doubt you've already chased off everyone there who criticises you.