The Great Tolkien Legendarium Thread

[Vilike]

Read it in Russian, I loved the "spy fiction" part in Umbar. The latter half of the novel somewhat less. And there were to many straightforward geo-historical parallels with our world for my taste.

That said, I recommend it too.

[jcb]

BTW, Wikipedia has a very interesting article on translating Tolkien. Tolkien was a terror to translators, since he could read a lot of the languages involved, and had strong opinions on how his text should be handled.

And that article doesn't even mention that the German translations use a different word for "elves" ("Elben") than the one the German language uses in non-Tolkien contexts ("Elfen").

AFAIK, Elb was suggested by Tolkien himself; it is the genuine German cognate of English elf, while Elf(e) is a loan from English. However, Elb was used very little before the Tolkien translation, mainly in literature about Germanic and Celtic mythology, and the reason to choose this "dead" word was that the Elves of Arda are so different from the glorified fireflies the word Elf(e) had come to mean in 20th-century German. Oddly enough, the German translators of the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game did not follow suit even though the D&D Elves are clearly closer to Tolkien's Elves than to little fairies, and most German RPG authors followed the D&D translation and also spoke of Elfen rather than Elben.

Although Tolkien's meaning is now the prototypical meaning of the word "elf", the older pre-Tolkien meaning still survives in some corners of English, like the "elves" in Santa's workshop ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VInFXeHu4b4 ) or the "elves" that make Keebler cookies ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMlndkhF2UE ).

[zompist]

Although Tolkien's meaning is now the prototypical meaning of the word "elf", the older pre-Tolkien meaning still survives in some corners of English, like the "elves" in Santa's workshop ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VInFXeHu4b4 ) or the "elves" that make Keebler cookies ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMlndkhF2UE ).

Those are Tolkienian elves. Santa is obviously a form of Sindar. The Keeblerin are undoubtedly named from celebrin "like silver". They have fallen far, but these are dark times.

[WeepingElf]

And that article doesn't even mention that the German translations use a different word for "elves" ("Elben") than the one the German language uses in non-Tolkien contexts ("Elfen").

AFAIK, Elb was suggested by Tolkien himself; it is the genuine German cognate of English elf, while Elf(e) is a loan from English. However, Elb was used very little before the Tolkien translation, mainly in literature about Germanic and Celtic mythology, and the reason to choose this "dead" word was that the Elves of Arda are so different from the glorified fireflies the word Elf(e) had come to mean in 20th-century German. Oddly enough, the German translators of the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game did not follow suit even though the D&D Elves are clearly closer to Tolkien's Elves than to little fairies, and most German RPG authors followed the D&D translation and also spoke of Elfen rather than Elben.

Although Tolkien's meaning is now the prototypical meaning of the word "elf", the older pre-Tolkien meaning still survives in some corners of English, like the "elves" in Santa's workshop ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VInFXeHu4b4 ) or the "elves" that make Keebler cookies ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMlndkhF2UE ).

Also, the house-elves of the Harry Potter universe. I wouldn't say that the Tolkienian meaning was now the prototypical meaning - it is among people like us who are into Tolkienian fantasy, tabletop RPGs, conlanging and all that, and prefer spelling it with a capital E, but for many (if not most) English-speaking people, the word "elf" still refers to Santa Claus's little helpers or even to tiny winged fairies. So the pre-Tolkien meaning survives in more than "some corners of English" - it is probably still the prototypical meaning for most English speakers. So now there are elves, and there are Elves: two different words with different meanings

[Lērisama]

Also, the house-elves of the Harry Potter universe. I wouldn't say that the Tolkienian meaning was now the prototypical meaning - it is among people like us who are into Tolkienian fantasy, tabletop RPGs, conlanging and all that, and prefer spelling it with a capital E, but for many (if not most) English-speaking people, the word "elf" still refers to Santa Claus's little helpers or even to tiny winged fairies. So the pre-Tolkien meaning survives in more than "some corners of English" - it is probably still the prototypical meaning for most English speakers. So now there are elves, and there are Elves: two different words with different meanings

I wouldn't call anything winged an elf myself, unless they were otherwise specifically Tolkienian – fairy has that space covered. Father Christmas however does indeed make use of elf labour, and that is probably the prototypical elf outside of fantasy.

[WeepingElf]

Also, the house-elves of the Harry Potter universe. I wouldn't say that the Tolkienian meaning was now the prototypical meaning - it is among people like us who are into Tolkienian fantasy, tabletop RPGs, conlanging and all that, and prefer spelling it with a capital E, but for many (if not most) English-speaking people, the word "elf" still refers to Santa Claus's little helpers or even to tiny winged fairies. So the pre-Tolkien meaning survives in more than "some corners of English" - it is probably still the prototypical meaning for most English speakers. So now there are elves, and there are Elves: two different words with different meanings

I wouldn't call anything winged an elf myself, unless they were otherwise specifically Tolkienian – fairy has that space covered. Father Christmas however does indeed make use of elf labour, and that is probably the prototypical elf outside of fantasy.

In German, fairies are called Elfen (sg. die Elfe, a loanword from English elf) or Feen (sg. die Fee, a loanword from French fée), while Santa's Elves are Wichtel, but sometimes also called Elfen, influenced by the English usage. The Tolkien-derived D&D Elves are either Elfen or Elben (the latter also used in the German translation of Tolkien's writings). Quite a mess indeed!

[Lērisama]

Also, the house-elves of the Harry Potter universe. I wouldn't say that the Tolkienian meaning was now the prototypical meaning - it is among people like us who are into Tolkienian fantasy, tabletop RPGs, conlanging and all that, and prefer spelling it with a capital E, but for many (if not most) English-speaking people, the word "elf" still refers to Santa Claus's little helpers or even to tiny winged fairies. So the pre-Tolkien meaning survives in more than "some corners of English" - it is probably still the prototypical meaning for most English speakers. So now there are elves, and there are Elves: two different words with different meanings

I wouldn't call anything winged an elf myself, unless they were otherwise specifically Tolkienian – fairy has that space covered. Father Christmas however does indeed make use of elf labour, and that is probably the prototypical elf outside of fantasy.

In German, fairies are called Elfen (sg. die Elfe, a loanword from English elf) or Feen (sg. die Fee, a loanword from French fée), while Santa's Elves are Wichtel, but sometimes also called Elfen, influenced by the English usage. The Tolkien-derived D&D Elves are either Elfen or Elben (the latter also used in the German translation of Tolkien's writings). Quite a mess indeed!

Ah! I was thinking with my English hat. My German hat is now nodding attentively and taking notes.

[hwhatting]

In German, fairies are called Elfen (sg. die Elfe, a loanword from English elf) or Feen (sg. die Fee, a loanword from French fée),

Specifically, the tiny humans with wings are Elfen, while Feen, e.g., the fairy godmothers in the fairy tales, are traditionally portrayed as human-size women, no wings. The latter has changed under Anglo-American, especially Disney, influence, and now you often see them portrayed as tiny women with wings as well.

[WeepingElf]

In German, fairies are called Elfen (sg. die Elfe, a loanword from English elf) or Feen (sg. die Fee, a loanword from French fée),

Specifically, the tiny humans with wings are Elfen, while Feen, e.g., the fairy godmothers in the fairy tales, are traditionally portrayed as human-size women, no wings. The latter has changed under Anglo-American, especially Disney, influence, and now you often see them portrayed as tiny women with wings as well.

Yes, you are right. Indeed, as a child (i.e., about 50 years ago), I thought Fee was simply a word for a female wizard

[Travis B.]

In German, fairies are called Elfen (sg. die Elfe, a loanword from English elf) or Feen (sg. die Fee, a loanword from French fée),

Specifically, the tiny humans with wings are Elfen, while Feen, e.g., the fairy godmothers in the fairy tales, are traditionally portrayed as human-size women, no wings. The latter has changed under Anglo-American, especially Disney, influence, and now you often see them portrayed as tiny women with wings as well.

Yes, you are right. Indeed, as a child (i.e., about 50 years ago), I thought Fee was simply a word for a female wizard

Mind you, the traditional German Feen are indeed how I personally picture "fairy godmothers".

[WeepingElf]

Meanwhile, I have written some notes on the Quendian languages.

[WeepingElf]

I have just discovered a blog post on the "flat world vs. round world" problem. Apparently, Tolkien did not ditch the new round world cosmology he came up with in the 1950s but explained the contradicting parts of the Silmarillion as Númenórean rather than Elvish mythology that does not reflect actual history of Arda.

[evmdbm]

Meanwhile, I have written some notes on the Quendian languages.

So here's what bugs me about Quenya and Sindarin. Where's the sound change come from? Sound change in human languages presumably comes from generational shift. My kids hear and say words subtly different from me and generation on generation as we live and die that changes the sounds of English. But elves are immortal. The elves still knocking around Valinor presumably speak Quenya the same way they did tens of thousands of years ago. Galadriel, still knocking about in RotK, came over with the Noldor in the First Age to get the Silmarils back. I cannot imagine she spoke either Quenya or Sindarin any differently to she did the thick end of 8000 years (?) previously. So how did Sindarin get to be different? How did anybody start to speak differently?

[Richard W]

Sound change in human languages presumably comes from generational shift.
...
I cannot imagine she spoke either Quenya or Sindarin any differently to she did the thick end of 8000 years (?) previously.

I can. I noticed at least one clear sound change in my normal speech in my early twenties. So, it is not impossible that youngsters get partially copied.

[WeepingElf]

Sound change in human languages presumably comes from generational shift.
...
I cannot imagine she spoke either Quenya or Sindarin any differently to she did the thick end of 8000 years (?) previously.

I can. I noticed at least one clear sound change in my normal speech in my early twenties. So, it is not impossible that youngsters get partially copied.

The (im)possibility of sound changes in languages of immortals are a subject frequently discussed among Tolkien fans. As you say, idiolects are not entirely changeless, just as such things as recreational interests change over the years, and it has been said that the Elves don't have perfect memory, so their languages may change over time, though slower than languages of mortals (which is what we actually see in the Quendian languages). Also, there is an essay by Tolkien himself ("The Shibboleth of Feanor") which I haven't read yet, but apparently discusses how Elves change their languages willfully.

[Travis B.]

I have had sound changes occur in my own speech during my lifetime. For instance, as a kid I pronounced the /tr/ in my name as [tʰɹ̥] but somewhere in approximately first or second grade I shifted initial /tr/ to be uniformly [tʃʰɹ̠̥ʁ̥] (the [ɹ̠̥ʁ̥] is doubly-articulated).

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

one sound change I've noticed I've adopted recently how I've been turning word initial /pʰ tʰ kʰ/ into something more like /pɸ ts kx/ during casual, non-careful speech.

[Travis B.]

one sound change I've noticed I've adopted recently how I've been turning word initial /pʰ tʰ kʰ/ into something more like /pɸ ts kx/ during casual, non-careful speech.

One High German Consonant Shift was enough...

[Richard W]

one sound change I've noticed I've adopted recently how I've been turning word initial /pʰ tʰ kʰ/ into something more like /pɸ ts kx/ during casual, non-careful speech.

One High German Consonant Shift was enough...

It's also been making its way into Danish.

[Travis B.]

one sound change I've noticed I've adopted recently how I've been turning word initial /pʰ tʰ kʰ/ into something more like /pɸ ts kx/ during casual, non-careful speech.

One High German Consonant Shift was enough...

It's also been making its way into Danish.

Australian English also has [tʰ] > [tsʰ], it should be noted.