Bengali thread

[rotting bones]

I have a stupid Indic question -- is the raising of IAST <a> really a feature of Sanskrit, or is it one of those "it is pronounced that way in Hindi so we are going to assume it was also this way in Classical Sanskrit" kind of things?

Well, Panini apparently thought the short <a> was weird even in his time: https://vishvasa.github.io/sanskrit/vyA ... UNCIATION/

This paper says "In old IAL none of the schwas are deleted": https://aclanthology.org/W04-0103.pdf

After that, I can only cite Wikipedia saying "Many of these rules are sporadically underway already in Late Prakrit/Apabhramsha": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonologi ... _Old_Hindi

That's all I know.

[Richard W]

I have a stupid Indic question -- is the raising of IAST <a> really a feature of Sanskrit, or is it one of those "it is pronounced that way in Hindi so we are going to assume it was also this way in Classical Sanskrit" kind of things?

To quote the only part of the Ashtadhyayi I know by heart, "a a". I.e., what has up to this point been treated as a fully open central vowel is in fact a bit higher, qualitatively different from the long vowel.

[rotting bones]

My mother's professor once told her that he once lent his copy of Gora to a student. Instead of reading it, the student lost it. Looks like I'll make up for it by glossing this whole novel.

I was getting worried I hadn't seen a single objective case in the first paragraph. Not to worry. Plenty of that in the world of specificities.

(Honestly, I'm much less sure of this one than the previous paragraph. I might have dropped some features in the glosses.)

এমন দিনে

æmon

such

d̪in-e

day.loc

"On such a day,"

বিনা-কাজের অবকাশে

bina-kadʒ-er

without-work.gen

ɔbokaʃ-e

opportunity.loc

"exploiting his joblessness,"

বিনয়ভূষণ তাহার বাসার দোতলার বারান্দায় একলা দাঁড়াইয়া

binojbʱuʃɔn

Binoybhushan

taha-r

3sg.gen

baʃa-r

house.gen

d̪o-tɔla-r

second-story.gen

barand̪a-i

veranda.loc

ækla

alone

d̪ãɽaija

standing,

"Binoybhushan, standing alone on his second story veranda,"

Note 1: The pronouns referring to the guy are totally genderless. Neither pronouns not verbs indicate any gender in Bengali. Even in archaic Bengali, it's totally gone.

Note 2: The English word veranda comes from Hindi. Bengali is probably using a cognate.

রাস্তায় জনতার চলাচল দেখিতেছিল।

rast̪a-i

road.loc

dʒɔnɔta-r

people.gen

tʃɔlatʃɔl

to.and.fro

d̪ekʰit̪etʃʰilo

watch.3.past

"was watching people walking by on the street."

কালেজের পড়াও অনেক দিন চুকিয়া গেছে,

kɔledʒ-er

college.gen

pɔɽa-o

study.also

ɔnek

many

d̪in

day

tʃukija

finish

getʃʰe

go.3.perf

"His college days are also long over,"

অথচ সংসারের মধ্যেও প্রবেশ করে নাই,

ɔt̪ʰɔtʃo

despite.this

ʃɔŋʃar-er

samsara.gen

mod̪d̪ʱe-o

middle.also

probeʃ

enter

kɔre

do.3

nai

not

"but he hadn't entered family life (samsara),"

বিনয়ের অবস্থাটা এইরূপ।

binɔj-er

pretense.gen

ɔbost̪ʰa-ta

situation.obj

ei-rup.

this-form

"such was the state of his pretense."

সভাসমিতি চালানো

ʃɔbʱa-ʃɔmiti

council-assembly

tʃalano

running

"Holding court"

এবং খবরের কাগজ লেখায় মন দিয়াছে–

eboŋ

and

kʰɔbor-er

news.gen

kagodʒ

paper

lekʰa-i

write.loc

mɔn

mind

d̪ijatʃʰe

give.3.perf

"and writing the newspaper occupies his mind-"

কিন্তু তাহাতে সব মনটা ভরিয়া উঠে নাই।

kintu

but

t̪aha-t̪e

that.loc

ʃɔb

all

mɔn-ta

mind.obj

bʱorija

fill

uʈʰe

go.3.up

nai.

not

"But that wasn't enough to occupy all his mind."

অন্তত আজ সকালবেলায় কী করিবে

ɔnt̪ɔt̪o

at.least

adʒ

today

ʃɔkalbæla-i

morning.loc

ki

what

koribe

do.3.fut

"At least what he will do this morning"

তাহা ভাবিয়া না পাইয়া

t̪aha

that

bʱabija

think.part

na

no

paija

find.part

"not being able to think of this"

(Compare the spoken form: ʃeta bʱebe na peje)

তাহার মনটা চঞ্চল হইয়া উঠিয়াছিল।

taha-r

3sg.gen

mɔn-ta

mind.obj

tʃɔntʃl

restless

hoija

be.part

uʈʰijatʃʰilo.

rise.3.past.perf

"his mind had grown restless."

Note 1: Here we encounter the rare verb for 'be' in a participle form, হইয়া. In spoken language, it's হয়ে. Related to Hindi है AFAIK.

Note 2: Consonant clusters like /ntʃ/ are written as conjunct forms like ঞ্চ.

পাশের বাড়ির ছাতের উপরে

paʃ-er

side.gen

baɽi-r

building.gen

tʃʰat̪-er

roof.gen

upor-e

top.loc

"On the roof of the building beside him,"

গোটা-তিনেক কাক

gota-t̪in-ek

whole-three-one

kak

crow

"three or so crows"

Note: No obligatory plurals.

কী লইয়া ডাকাডাকি করিতেছিল

ki

what

loija

with

dakadaki

calling

korit̪etʃʰilo

do.3.past.perf

"were fighting over something"

এবং চড়ুই-দম্পতি তাহার বারান্দার এক কোণে বাসা-নির্মাণ-ব্যাপারে পরস্পরকে কিচিমিচি শব্দে উৎসাহ দিতেছিল–

eboŋ

and

tʃoɽui-d̪ɔmpot̪i

sparrow-couple

taha-r

his

barand̪a-r

veranda.gen

æk

one

kon-e

corner.loc

baʃa-nirman-bæpar-e

house-construction-subject.loc

pɔrɔʃpɔr-ke

each.other.obj

kitʃimitʃi

onomat.

ʃɔbd̪-e

sound.loc

ut̪ʰʃaho

encouragement

d̪it̪etʃʰilo

give.3.past.perf

"and a sparrow couple in one corner of his veranda were encouraging each other on matters of house construction-"

Note: Not a couple of sparrows. A married couple that happens to be sparrows.

সেই সমস্ত অব্যক্ত কাকলি

ʃei

that

ʃɔmɔsto

all

ɔb:ækt̪o

unspoken

kakoli

birdsong

"all that speechless birdsong"

বিনয়ের মনের মধ্যে

binoj-er

pretense.gen

mɔn-er

mind.gen

mod̪d̪ʱ-e

middle.loc

"within his pretending mind"

একটা কোন্‌ অস্পষ্ট ভাবাবেগকে জাগাইয়া তুলিতেছিল।

æk-ta

one.obj

kon

some

ɔʃpɔʃto

unclear

bʱab-ke

sense.obj

dʒagaija

wake.part

tulitetʃʰilo.

raise.3.past.perf

"was waking up some unclear concept."

[rotting bones]

What was that vowel harmony document referring to as /ɛ/? Was it /æ/?

[Travis B.]

Are you going to gloss and translate all of Gora with one post per sentence? This could turn into a pretty long thread.

[rotting bones]

Are you going to gloss and translate all of Gora with one post per sentence? This could turn into a pretty long thread.

Until people point out mistakes or ask questions, this is the only way I can get better at Bengali again.

Also, these are one paragraph per post. Bengali sentences end with a vertical bar.

[rotting bones]

Speaking of which, did you understand what was said?

[rotting bones]

Principles of the Brahmo religion, arguably the ideal motive of the Bengali Renaissance:

On God: There is always Infinite (limitless, undefinable, unperceivable, indivisible) Singularity - immanent and transcendant Singular Author and Preserver of Existence - He who is manifest everywhere and in everything, in the fire and in the water, in the smallest plant to the mightiest oak.
On Being: Being is created from Singularity. Being is renewed to Singularity. Being exists to be one (again) with Loving Singularity.
On Intelligent Existence: Righteous (worshipful, intelligent, moral) actions alone rule (regulate[preserve]) Existence against Chaos (loss [decay, return, pervading emptiness]). Knowledge (Intelligence[reason, sentience, intuition]) of pure Conscience (light within) is the One (Supreme) ruler (authority[law, dharma]) of Existence with no symbol (creation [scripture, book, object]) or intermediary (being[teacher, messiah, ruler]).
On Love: Respect all creations and beings but never venerate (worship) them for only Singularity can be loved (adored, worshipped).

Source: https://www.brahmosamaj.in/

Honestly, it's a lot like Islam without the insane medieval legalism. Even intelligence ('aql) is a principle of Islam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Aql

PS. This is relevant to Gora.

[Travis B.]

Speaking of which, did you understand what was said?

I understood the English translations; as for the glosses, I am not the best at reading glosses.

[rotting bones]

I just realized my natural English voice is slightly deeper than my natural Bengali voice: https://voca.ro/1ceFPntVa1Cn

[rotting bones]

I understood the English translations; as for the glosses, I am not the best at reading glosses.

Ok, I will try to explain what I have glossed so far.

শ্রাবণ মাসের সকালবেলায়

srabon

Srabon

maʃ-er

month.gen

ʃɔkalbæla-j

morning.loc

"It's morning in the month of Srabon,"

Cultural note: The month of Srabon is associated with the monsoon. This paragraph is suggesting that it has stopped raining recently. The clear air filled with sunlight is bathing the city in youthful radiance.

In this text, the two most commonly marked cases are the genitive and the locative.

srabon maʃ-er
Srabon month's
-er marks the genitive.

ʃɔkalbæla-j
In ... morning
-j marks the locative.

Literally: In Srabon month's morning...

মেঘ কাটিয়া গিয়া

megh

cloud

katija

cut.part

gija

go

"the clouds having parted,"

This is a compound verb. katija is a participle form, which compounds it with the verb following it.

This is a common construction in Bengali.

রাস্তায় গাড়িঘোড়ার বিরাম নাই,

rasta-i

road.loc

gaɽi-ɡʱoɽa-r

car-horse.gen

biram

rest

nai

is.none

"On the road, the cars and horses have no rest"

That is: In road (locative), car-horse's (genitive) rest is none.

No explicit copula here. The negation nai is sufficient.

ফেরিওয়ালা অবিশ্রাম হাঁকিয়া চলিয়াছে,

pʰeriwala

hawker

ɔbisram

no-rest

hãkija

call.part

tʃolijatʃʰe

walk.3.perf.cont

"the street hawkers keep walking, calling without rest,"

Verbs in Bengali do mark person. I just added them to the first paragraph.

tʃolijatʃʰe is 3rd person perfect continuous.

তাহাদের জন্য বাসায় বাসায় মাছ-তরকারির চুপড়ি আসিয়াছে

t̪ahade-r

3pl.gen

dʒon:o

for

baʃa-i

house.loc

baʃa-i

house.loc

matʃʰ-tɔrkari-r

fish-curry.gen

tʃupɽi

basket

aʃiatʃʰe

come.3.perf

"for them, baskets of fish and curry have come house to house"

In the second word জন্য, ন্য spells nja. In Bengali, the j disappears and geminates the consonant before it. The vowel is of course never short a. The result is: nno

ও রান্নাঘরে উনান জ্বালাইবার ধোঁওয়া উঠিয়াছে–

o

and

ranna-r

cook.gen

unan

oven

dʒalaiba-r

burn.gen

d̪ʱõwa

smoke

uʈʰiatʃʰe

rise.3.perf

"and smoke has risen from burning cooking ovens"

Literally: (cook's oven) burn's smoke has risen... (cook is a verb)
Maybe: Smoke has risen from the burning of the ovens of cooking.

কিন্তু তবু এত বড়ো এই-যে কাজের শহর কঠিন হৃদয় কলিকাতা,

kint̪u

but

t̪obu

still

æto

this.much

bɔɽo

big

ei-dʒe

this.one

kadʒ-er

work.gen

ʃɔhɔr

city

koʈʰin

hard

hrid̪oj

heart

Kolikata

Kolkata

"but still, this big city of work, hard-hearted Kolkata,"

æto bɔɽo
this.much big

æto goes with bɔɽo, making the bigness bigger. So, comparative?

ei-dʒe
this.one

The other this is referring to the city as opposed to its bigness.

1.

ইহার শত শত রাস্তা এবং গলির ভিতরে

ihar

its

ʃɔto

hundred

ʃɔto

hundred

rasta

road

aboŋ

and

goli-r

alley.gen

bʱitor-e

inside.loc

"inside its hundreds and hundreds of roads and alleys"

2.

সোনার আলোকের ধারা

ʃona-r

gold.gen

alok-er

light.gen

d̪ʱara

stream

"streams of golden light"

3.

আজ যেন একটা অপূর্ব যৌবনের প্রবা

adʒ

today

dʒæno

as.if

ækta

one

ɔpurbo

wonderful

dʒoubon-er

youth.gen

proba

radiance

"today as if a wonderful youth's radiance"

4.

বহিয়া লইয়া চলিয়াছে।

bohija

carry

loija

bring

tʃolijatʃʰe

walk.3.perf.cont

"is carrying along."

Here, the Bengali syntax is different from English syntax.

In English: Today, it's as if (3) streams of golden light (2) are carrying along (4) a wonderful youth's radiance (3 again) inside its hundreds and hundreds of roads and alleys (1).

(4) in Bengali has become (2) in English because Bengali is SOV.

[rotting bones]

Let me know if these explanations are helping.

বিনা-কাজের অবকাশে

bina-kadʒ-er

without-work.gen

ɔbokaʃ-e

opportunity.loc

"exploiting his joblessness,"

Literally: In (without work)'s opportunity...

বিনয়ভূষণ তাহার বাসার দোতলার বারান্দায় একলা দাঁড়াইয়া

binojbʱuʃɔn

Binoybhushan

taha-r

3sg.gen

baʃa-r

house.gen

d̪o-tɔla-r

second-story.gen

barand̪a-i

veranda.loc

ækla

alone

d̪ãɽaija

standing,

"Binoybhushan, standing alone on his second story veranda,"

Literally: Binoybhushan, in their (i.e. his) house's second story's veranda, standing alone...

রাস্তায় জনতার চলাচল দেখিতেছিল।

rast̪a-i

road.loc

dʒɔnɔta-r

people.gen

tʃɔlatʃɔl

to.and.fro

d̪ekʰit̪etʃʰilo

watch.3.past

"was watching people walking by on the street."

Literally: ...in road, people's to and fro was watching.

কালেজের পড়াও অনেক দিন চুকিয়া গেছে,

kɔledʒ-er

college.gen

pɔɽa-o

study.also

ɔnek

many

d̪in

day

tʃukija

finish

getʃʰe

go.3.perf

"His college days are also long over,"

The also is suffixed to the verb.

বিনয়ের অবস্থাটা এইরূপ।

binɔj-er

pretense.gen

ɔbost̪ʰa-ta

situation.obj

ei-rup.

this-form

"such was the state of his pretense."

Binoybhushan is this character's name. Binoy also means gentleness or pretense. (Unrelatedly, this is cognate with Vinaya, monkish discipline in Buddhism.) I wasn't sure whether to say "pretense" or use his name. In the end, I think I forgot I was planning to possibly use his name.

Edit: The objective case technically marks the direct object, but in practice they don't mark all objects. As you can see, it only marks the object when it indicates definiteness.

সভাসমিতি চালানো

ʃɔbʱa-ʃɔmiti

council-assembly

tʃalano

running

"Holding court"

This is referring to hanging out with friends in sardonically serious language.

কী লইয়া ডাকাডাকি করিতেছিল

ki

what

loija

with

dakadaki

calling

korit̪etʃʰilo

do.3.past.perf

"were fighting over something"

Implication: The crows were cawing while pulling an unseen object to and fro.

[rotting bones]

Edit: Thanks bradrn for pointing to a closer meaning for lagilo.

আলখাল্লা-পরা একটা বাউল

alkʰal:a-pɔra

robe-wearing

æk-ta

one.obj

baul

Baul

"A robe-wearing Baul,"

A Baul is a spiritual folk singer. Their songs, regardless of religion, were heavily influenced by Sufism. Traditionally, they often didn't identify with any one religion.

There is an objective case on 'one' /æk/. The objective case applies to direct objects when you need to mark definiteness.

æk-ta baul
some particular Baul that is being introduced

Compare:

baul-ta
some particular Baul that has already been introduced

নিকটে দোকানের সামনে দাঁড়াইয়া

nikɔt-e

close.loc

d̪okan-er

shop.gen

ʃamne

front.loc

d̪ãɽaija

stand.cont

"standing in front of a shop close by"

গান গাহিতে লাগিল–

gan

song

gahit̪e

sing.3

lagilo

touch.past.hab

"started singing a song-"

lagilo is a habitual verb.

If the Baul is just singing a song, why "gahit̪e lagilo"? This is idiomatic. Compound verbs are pervasive in Bengali.

Edit: The verb 'touch' is used to indicate the inception of the action.

খাঁচার ভিতর অচিন পাখি

kʰãtʃa-r

cage.gen

bʱit̪or

inside

ɔtʃin

unknown

pakʰi

bird

"Unknown bird inside the cage"

This is lyrical language. In normal language, there would be a locative case on "inside" /bʱit̪or/. Also, these lyrics are in a non-standard rural dialect.

The lyrics are typical for traditional Bengali folk music. The cage refers to the rib cage. The bird is the soul. It is always trying to fly away and return to its creator.

According to Islam, the soul was created to return to Allah. This concept is called fitra. The Quran exhorts people to "come back to your Lord", new Muslims say they "reverted" to Islam because all babies are born Muslim, etc.

কমনে আসে যায়,

kɔmne

where

aʃe

come.3

dʒaj

go.3

"where it comes and goes"

The implication is "I do not know".

"kɔmne" is a regional word.

ধরতে পারলে মনোবেড়ি

d̪ʱort̪e

catch

parle

can

mɔno-beɽi

mind-shackle

"Could I catch it, mind shackles"

দিতেম পাখির পায়

d̪it̪em

give.past.subj

pakʰi-r

bird.gen

pa-i

foot.loc

"I would give the bird's foot."

d̪it̪em is the verb for 'give' that I'm sure is expressing a wish. I marked it with a subjunctive mood. I'm not sure what it actually is.

[bradrn]

গান গাহিতে লাগিল–
gan gahit̪e lagilo
song sing.3 connect.past.hab
started singing a song-

lagilo is a habitual verb.

Judging from Wiktionary, a better gloss of লাগা laga might be ‘touch’, which is less specific than ‘connect’.

Also, beware that phpBB is stripping out all the spaces from your glosses. You might like Neonnaut’s gloss generator tool to make them look nicer.

[rotting bones]

Judging from Wiktionary, a better gloss of লাগা laga might be ‘touch’, which is less specific than ‘connect’.

Thanks, that never occurred to me in this context. Now it makes more sense why that word is slang for doing the deed.

Also, beware that phpBB is stripping out all the spaces from your glosses. You might like Neonnaut’s gloss generator tool to make them look nicer.

I'll try it out.

[rotting bones]

I'm trying Neonnaut’s gloss generator. I couldn't figure out how to get multi-line outputs yet.

My favorite song along these lines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvs4x56oSXM

হলুদিয়া পাখি

[holud̪ija

yellow

pakʰi]

bird

"Yellow bird"

সোনারই বরণ

[ʃonari

golden

bɔron]

form

"Golden color"

পাখিটি ছাড়িল কে

[pakʰi-ti

bird.obj

tʃʰaɽilo

release.past

ke]

who

"Who released the bird?"

কেউ না জানিল,

[keu

someone

na

no

dʒanilo]

know.past

"No one knew"

কেউ না দেখিল,

[keu

someone

na

no

d̪ekʰilo]

see.past

"No one saw"

কেমনে পাখি দিয়াছে ফাঁকি

[kæmone

how

pakʰi

bird

d̪ijatʃʰe

give.3.past.perf

pʰãki]

slip

"How the bird gave me the slip"

উইড়া গেল হায় চোখের পলকে

[uiɽa

fly

gælo

go.past

haj

oh

tʃokʰ-er

eye.gen

pɔlok-e]

lash.loc

"flying past in the blink of an eye."

I'm pretty sure "lash" is being used as a verb, which is then re-nominalized and given a locative.

পাখিটি ছাড়িল কে।।

[pakʰi-ti

bird.obj

tʃʰaɽilo

release.past

ke]

who

"Who released the bird?"

(Who let the dogs out?)

[rotting bones]

I sent every line through a meatgrinder script. I hope I didn't break anything. I'm feeling worse today than yesterday.

[rotting bones]

I'm not feeling well enough to revise this. There might be mistakes I got right before. Sorry.

বিনয়ের ইচ্ছা করিতে লাগিল

binɔj-er

Binoy.gen

itʃtʃʰa

want

korit̪e

do.part

lagilo

touch.past.hab

"Binoy started to want"

Again /lagilo/ is used to mean "started".

বাউলকে ডাকিয়া এই অচিন পাখির গানটা লিখিয়া লয়,

baul-ke

baul.obj

dakija

call.part

ei

this

ɔtʃin

unknown

pakʰi-r

bird.gen

gan-ta

song.obj

likʰija

write.part

lɔi

take

"(to) call the baul and write down the song of this unknown bird,"

In English, it's "write down". In Bengali, it's "write take". "Take down" is possible in English.

কিন্তু ভোর-রাত্রে যেমন শীত-শীত করে

kint̪u

but

bʱor-rat̪r-e

dawn-night-loc

dʒæmon

as

ʃit̪-ʃit̪

cold-cold

kɔre

do.3

"but as when it feels cold at dawn or night"

অথচ গায়ের কাপড়টা টানিয়া লইতে উদ্যম থাকে না,

ɔt̪ʰɔtʃo

still

gaj-er

body.gen

kapoɽ-ta

cloth.obj

tanija

pull.part

loite

take

ud̪:ɔm

energy

t̪ʰake

stay

na

no

"nevertheless, the body doesn't have enough energy to pull the clothes tighter,"

তেমনি একটা আলস্যের ভাবে বাউলকে ডাকা হইল না,

temni

like.that

æk-ta

one.obj

aloʃ:-er

sloth.gen

bʱab-e

sense.loc

baul-ke

baul.obj

daka

call

hoilo

happen

na

no

"like that, in some sense of sloth, he didn't call the baul,"

গান লেখাও হইল না,

gan

song

lekʰa-o

write-also

hoilo

happen

na

no

"nor did he write down the song,"

কেবল ঐ অচেনা পাখির সুরটা মনের মধ্যে গুন্‌ গুন্‌ করিতে লাগিল।

kebol

only

oi

that

ɔtʃena

unfamiliar

pakʰi-r

bird.gen

ʃur-ta

tune.obj

mɔn-er

mind.gen

mod̪d̪ʱ-e

middle.loc

gun gun

onom.

korite

do

lagilo

touch.past.hab

"only the tune about that unfamiliar bird began humming in his mind."

This onomatopoeia গুন্‌ গুন্‌ /gun gun/ shows how you can indicate the absence of a final vowel in the Bengali script.

[rotting bones]

Is this all it takes to create a sense of yearning? It can't be this easy, right?

[zompist]

I'm going to skim through a Hindi grammar and ask if Bengali is the same or different. I have been reading along but if you answered these above, sorry.

1. Hindi loves participle + be constructions. Does Bengali?
2. How do you form questions? (Hindi: intonation, or add kyā.)
3. What do the personal pronouns look like?
4. Do you have the derivational affixes -vālā, -i, -kār, -khānā, (negative) a-, (infinitive) -nā?
5. What do possessives look like? Cf. Rām kā chātā 'Ram's umbrella'.
6. Do you have double causatives? Cf. gir fall > girā cause to fall > girvā cause to cause to fall
7. How do you form a relative clause? Is it detachable, as in Hindi?
8. Does Bengali have as many Persian/Arabic borrowings as Hindi, and if so, is there an anxiety to Sanskritize them?