United States Politics Thread 47

[Travis B.]

No we mustn't, because it isn't true. That article reports 23.6% support for Trump in the 18 to 29 bracket.

Sure but that doesn't necessarily mean they've moved away from right wing politics. Perhaps they no longer believe that Trump is capable of killing the "woke mind virus" or turning back the clock on women's rights. They may well still support the Manosphere and all that and are simply waiting for a better champion of reactionary politics to appear. We made a grave mistake in assuming young people were still moving leftward in 2024 and we should not assume they have learned any lesson just yet.

You keep on somehow trying to convince yourself that Trump hasn't fucked up and lost the people who voted for him over the price of eggs but who have no taste for tariffs, goons dragging people off the street, or new foreign wars with no end in sight.

[Ketsuban]

Sure but that doesn't necessarily mean they've moved away from right wing politics. Perhaps they no longer believe that Trump is capable of killing the "woke mind virus" or turning back the clock on women's rights. They may well still support the Manosphere and all that and are simply waiting for a better champion of reactionary politics to appear.

Or maybe, just maybe, the information you saw that said zoomers were going hard into reactionary politics and the manosphere (much like what seems like a lot of the other information you keep coming up with) came from reactionary politicians and the manosphere, all of whom have a vested interest in appearing to have the support of a "silent majority" and are amply historically documented as being willing to fabricate evidence of such a thing.

[Torco]

Erm…, I suspect the Uyghurs and Tibetans would beg to differ on your genocide point. I apologise for the unevidenced claim, but I did have a longer post with links, but the board ate it, and it really wasn't hard to find. I'm actually a little sympathetic to your argument¹ but that line really tipped the balance from “slightly heterodox argument” to “anti-American screed” for me.

¹ Although I'd be a lot more nuanced and be a lot less cavalier about the realities of an entrenched dictatorship

sure, i don't deny china does fucked up things. but compared to the us, and tbh to what any country can do when it has the level of uncontested hegemony the us has, we're talking peanuts to watermelons.

Torco, what China hasn't done is for lack of opportunity not lack of want. If China could be, China would be just as much of an imperialist power as the US. And as Lērisama mentions, Uyghurs and Tibetans would not think the Chinese Communist Party is as benevolent as you seem to think it is.

this is unsubstantiated, not that relevant, and probably false. unsubstantiated cause, sure, china could be as terrible as the us if it had the same amount of power, but it also could not be. not relevant cause china isn't going to be as powerful as the us (at most it can challenge us hegemony in the middling future, it is not going to replace it), and probably false cause china has an express policy of non-interventionism abroad and has for decades. the us policy is explicity "do what we want or get rekt".

i'm not saying it's benevolent. i'm saying it's likely to be a lot more benign that the us, which is i guess a similar thing to say, but not the same.

To avoid red herrings, my point is not "US good, China bad". Plutocracy is horrible, crony capitalism is worse. I admire the PRC for modernizing China, something neither outsiders nor the Nationalists could do. Deng is one of the remarkable leaders of the 20th century. And as I said, the engineering mindset gets a lot of things done. But authoritarianism is bad and eventually causes disasters and collapses and wars. Yes, even in China.

granted on all fronts. my point is also not us bad china good. if it's anything, it's china bad us much, much, much worse. both circumstantially (as in, even if it was inherently just as bad, it isn't and won't be for the foreseeable future in a position to do nearly as much bad as the us) and, possibly, structurally: whatever bad china does to its conquered populations in tibet and xinjiang, i don't see them holding back the entire world from stopping two million people being starved and bombed for two years halfway across the world, for example. or forcing every country to use its political system or swallow 20 years of fascist china-backed dictatorships. therefore, i wish their power keeps or waxes, and i wish the us's power wanes. i see no way for us power to wane in the foreseeable future other than china and the rest of the rivals of the us to establish a viable alternative to the dollar system, erode us global hegemony and all the rest of it, so i wish they do because of that. not because they're "the good guys" in some transcendental tolkenian forces of light versus mordor sense.

Obviously the plutocrats aren't doing a good job at that despite the advantages you suppose they have, with how Trump's polls are in the toilet, Republicans keep on losing races they ought to be able to win (and only winning them on thin margins in races that they ought to be able to win by a landslide), and socialism is at its most popular here in the US in decades.

on the other hand, i think obviously the plutocrats are winning right now in the world. right now here means in this age, not the latest poll of donald john trump, and the us is not the world, so you're correct in saying the trump government is not doing amazing right now, but look at things more broadly and sincerely answer: compared to 2000, for example, do the world's plutos have more cracy(kratia), or do they have less cracy?

[malloc]

Or maybe, just maybe, the information you saw that said zoomers were going hard into reactionary politics and the manosphere (much like what seems like a lot of the other information you keep coming up with) came from reactionary politicians and the manosphere, all of whom have a vested interest in appearing to have the support of a "silent majority" and are amply historically documented as being willing to fabricate evidence of such a thing.

The fact that the zoomers voted heavily for Trump in 2024 seems like pretty decisive evidence that the opinion polls showing their right-wing turn are accurate. Opinion polls have plenty of room for error and manipulation, but electoral results are pretty definitive, unless you believe the election was rigged with zoomer votes especially forged.

[Travis B.]

Or maybe, just maybe, the information you saw that said zoomers were going hard into reactionary politics and the manosphere (much like what seems like a lot of the other information you keep coming up with) came from reactionary politicians and the manosphere, all of whom have a vested interest in appearing to have the support of a "silent majority" and are amply historically documented as being willing to fabricate evidence of such a thing.

The fact that the zoomers voted heavily for Trump in 2024 seems like pretty decisive evidence that the opinion polls showing their right-wing turn are accurate. Opinion polls have plenty of room for error and manipulation, but electoral results are pretty definitive, unless you believe the election was rigged with zoomer votes especially forged.

Voters weren't happy about the price of eggs; voters weren't voting in favor of tariffs, mass deportation of innocent people, or foreign wars. You seem oblivious to this because it doesn't fit the narrative in your head.

[zompist]

i'm not saying it's benevolent. i'm saying it's likely to be a lot more benign that the us, which is i guess a similar thing to say, but not the same.

I'll grant you one thing: it'll take them time to get to Santiago.

You have the problem of anyone with a single-villain ideology: you can't see any problems except those caused by your favorite villain. Ukrainians don't matter to you. Taiwanese don't matter to you. I totally understand being mad at the US, but you have this huge moral gap in your soul because you don't understand that other parts of the world are mad at threats other than the US.

It's not that hard to understand that empires are all the same, some just have better propaganda.

i don't see them holding back the entire world from stopping two million people being starved and bombed for two years halfway across the world

Uh huh.

[Raphael]

Interestingly enough, elsewhere on the web, I'm several rounds into a back-and-forth with another single-villainer whose single villain is Islamic Fundamentalism. He and Torco would really hate each other, but they might agree that Ukrainians don't really exist.

[alice]

The fact that the zoomers voted heavily for Trump in 2024 seems like pretty decisive evidence that the opinion polls showing their right-wing turn are accurate. Opinion polls have plenty of room for error and manipulation, but electoral results are pretty definitive, unless you believe the election was rigged with zoomer votes especially forged.

Do you consider 23.6% - the figure zompist quoted - to be "heavily"? What would you consider, say, 50% to be?

[Travis B.]

The fact that the zoomers voted heavily for Trump in 2024 seems like pretty decisive evidence that the opinion polls showing their right-wing turn are accurate. Opinion polls have plenty of room for error and manipulation, but electoral results are pretty definitive, unless you believe the election was rigged with zoomer votes especially forged.

Do you consider 23.6% - the figure zompist quoted - to be "heavily"? What would you consider, say, 50% to be?

As we can see here, malloc will do whatever mental gymnastics he needs to maintain his worldview that Trump et al are unbeatable.

[malloc]

Do you consider 23.6% - the figure zompist quoted - to be "heavily"? What would you consider, say, 50% to be?

Disapproving of Trump does not necessarily mean you reject the far right more generally. One can easily subscribe to reactionary politics while simultaneously concluding that Trump is unqualified to implement the policies of reaction. It seems quite likely that many zoomers who disapprove of Trump now are following the lead of the openly fascist Nick Fuentes, who has expressed disillusionment with the Republicans recently. The zoomers may well have abandoned Trump but that doesn't mean they've abandoned Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, and other right wing influencers.

As we can see here, malloc will do whatever mental gymnastics he needs to maintain his worldview that Trump et al are unbeatable.

It's a matter of avoiding the overconfidence that allowed Trump to win reëlection. Given the stunning wave of reactionary victories over the past decade, it astounds me that anyone can still claim they are simply bluffing. The reactionaries are not invincible, but they clearly have the upper hand and the sooner we recognize that, the better.

[rotting bones]

HasanAbi, the influencer who annoys even leftists by following every mention of Israel with "not all Jews", the man whom centrist Democrat streamers unfriended because he insisted one should never say anything remotely racist even as a private joke, has been deemed antisemitic by the centrist outrage machine. This would have been funny if they had some evidence. However, these types never do. Hopefully, this cancellation will boost his popularity, making him competitive with Joe Rogan (he's a bodybuilder type as well).

[rotting bones]

Disapproving of Trump does not necessarily mean you reject the far right more generally. One can easily subscribe to reactionary politics while simultaneously concluding that Trump is unqualified to implement the policies of reaction. It seems quite likely that many zoomers who disapprove of Trump now are following the lead of the openly fascist Nick Fuentes, who has expressed disillusionment with the Republicans recently. The zoomers may well have abandoned Trump but that doesn't mean they've abandoned Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, and other right wing influencers.

No one remembers the last time propaganda technology got a boost.

2

Grassy seat (note: song allusion) - Our relationship to parents is beginning to undergo a sad, shadowy transformation. Through their economic impotence they have lost their awesomeness. Once we rebelled against their insistence on the reality principle, the sobriety forever prone to become wrath against those less ready to renounce. But today we are faced with a generation purporting to be young yet in all its reactions insufferably more grown-up than its parents ever were; which, having renounced before any conflict, draws from this its grimly authoritarian, unshakable power. Perhaps people have at all times felt the parental generation to become harmless, powerless, with the waning of its physical strength, while their own generation already seemed threatened by the young: in an antagonistic society the relation between generations too is one of competition, behind which stands naked power. But today it is beginning to regress to a state versed, not in the Oedipus complex, but in parricide. One of the Nazis' symbolic outrages is the killing of the very old. Such a climate fosters a late, lucid understanding with our parents, as between the condemned, marred only by the fear that we, powerless ourselves, might now be unable to care for them as well as they cared for us when they possessed something. The violence done to them makes us forget the violence they did. Even their rationalizations, the once-hated lies with which they sought to justify their particular interest as a general one, reveal in them an inkling of the truth, an urge to resolve a conflict (note: conflict of haves and have-nots in society) whose existence their children, proof against all uncertainty, cheerfully deny. Even the outdated, inconsistent, self-doubting ideas of the older generation are more open to dialogue than the slick stupidity of Junior. ...

[rotting bones]

Netanyahu wants Christians to be more like Genghis Khan: https://youtu.be/OklbJm8QCXo This is not satire.

[rotting bones]

There are apparently towns owned by Dark Enlightenment companies already: https://youtu.be/cR3P9jxAgfY

A decade or so ago, I was temp banned on the ZBB almost every time I warned that Curtis Yarvin was spreading harmful ideas. One of the arguments back then was that the people I was mentioning were not academics, so my argument was invalid.

People think I'm doomering pointlessly when I argue against the efficacy of intelligence and urge people to lose faith in their sanity. I'm not. Reflecting on the bottomlessness of the stupidity demonstrated by 21st century intellectuals so far is practically a spiritual experience for me.

[alice]

Do you consider 23.6% - the figure zompist quoted - to be "heavily"? What would you consider, say, 50% to be?

Disapproving of Trump does not necessarily mean you reject the far right more generally. One can easily subscribe to reactionary politics while simultaneously concluding that Trump is unqualified to implement the policies of reaction. It seems quite likely that many zoomers who disapprove of Trump now are following the lead of the openly fascist Nick Fuentes, who has expressed disillusionment with the Republicans recently. The zoomers may well have abandoned Trump but that doesn't mean they've abandoned Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, and other right wing influencers.

Imagine that every reputable poll showed support for "the right" or "reactionaries" to be below, say, 40%, or whatever is low enough to give them virtually no chance of winning the next election. How would you respond?

1. "That's obviously just people being afraid to admit they vote for right-wing candidates".
2. "The polls are obviously all wrong because reasons".
3. "The right have obviously manipulated the polls to motivate their base to get voting again".
4. "It doesn't matter because there'll be a state of emergency by the time of the election and it will be cancelled".
5. "That doesn't mean the support won't be back up by the time the election comes".
7. "I think I may have been unduly pessimistic and am looking forward to seeing the right being voted out of office".

[rotting bones]

A slight rightward swing did happen, some of it as pushback against the "left's" outrage machines, but in the grand scheme of things, the outlook is worse for the right: https://youtu.be/l7Y-AF-Zt0Y

The consensus that is being lost wasn't that great to begin with. Western liberals are people I would once have called conservatives in West Bengal.

---

BTW, regarding Palestine: https://open.substack.com/pub/zeteo/p/i ... id&r=e7ptw

[malloc]

The consensus that is being lost wasn't that great to begin with. Western liberals are people I would once have called conservatives in West Bengal.

How so? Surely conservative by South Asian standards would look nothing like Western liberalism.

Imagine that every reputable poll showed support for "the right" or "reactionaries" to be below, say, 40%, or whatever is low enough to give them virtually no chance of winning the next election. How would you respond?

I would argue that many people still stand by regressive social views but feel that the current crop of Republicans is simply not capable of legislating those attitudes effectively. Thus far, I have read nothing to suggest that zoomers have turned against Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan, just because they've become increasingly disillusioned with Trump.

[jcb]

I know it's a little old, but it's too funny to not share:
- https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tv/ ... 50200.html

These ships should go through the Strait of Hormuz and show some guts, there’s nothing to be afraid of… They have no Navy, we sunk all their ships.

Show some guts, Captain Phillip. I know you may not want to sail the slowest-moving vehicle on Earth, packed with the most flammable liquid on Earth through the most active war zone on Earth, but on the other hand, bawk bawk bawk bawk.

[Travis B.]

The consensus that is being lost wasn't that great to begin with. Western liberals are people I would once have called conservatives in West Bengal.

How so? Surely conservative by South Asian standards would look nothing like Western liberalism.

Have you been paying attention to anything rotting bones has posted here? West Bengal is a place that at one time regularly elected real live Communists with a big C, which you'd know if you'd've paid attention.

[Travis B.]

Imagine that every reputable poll showed support for "the right" or "reactionaries" to be below, say, 40%, or whatever is low enough to give them virtually no chance of winning the next election. How would you respond?

I would argue that many people still stand by regressive social views but feel that the current crop of Republicans is simply not capable of legislating those attitudes effectively. Thus far, I have read nothing to suggest that zoomers have turned against Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan, just because they've become increasingly disillusioned with Trump.

You're just going through rhetorical contortions because you can't see that your unfounded misconceptions may happen to be wrong. Where is there any evidence for what you just said there? Please ─ show us ─ rather than repeating your own baseless presuppositions as you do time and time again.