Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[Qwynegold]

Are there languages where a complement clause always precedes its main clause? I'm thinking of examples like eating fish likes Rachel or that the weather is warm knows Jeff.

For the first I was thinking of Japanese also (I studied it in middle and high school, actually), but many other SOV languages probably follow similar patterns in this regard.

Well, I thought of Turkic languages, but they frequently embed the complement clause between the subject and the rest of the clause:
Rachel fishes eating likes
Jeff weather warm being knows
That's because the complement clauses tend to be in the O position. This doesn't seem to be what SHG is looking for, so, I guess zomp is right that one should rather look at O-first-languages.

This is precisely how Japanese does it too, actually.

[Raphael]

A question about something Travis said in the Conlang Fluency Thread:

* Yes this word isn't Germanic in origin, but since English has dance and StG has tanzen I decided to go with it.

What did Germanic languages use before they incorporated that one?

[bradrn]

A question about something Travis said in the Conlang Fluency Thread:

* Yes this word isn't Germanic in origin, but since English has dance and StG has tanzen I decided to go with it.

What did Germanic languages use before they incorporated that one?

Apparently English had hlēapan, modern ‘leap’.

[Raphael]

A question about something Travis said in the Conlang Fluency Thread:

* Yes this word isn't Germanic in origin, but since English has dance and StG has tanzen I decided to go with it.

What did Germanic languages use before they incorporated that one?

Apparently English had hlēapan, modern ‘leap’.

Thank you!

[Travis B.]

A question about something Travis said in the Conlang Fluency Thread:



What did Germanic languages use before they incorporated that one?

Apparently English had hlēapan, modern ‘leap’.

Thank you!

I should note that its StG cognate, laufen, means 'run' not 'dance' or 'leap'.

Edit: You obviously know this, but others may not.

[Travis B.]

For the people who know Dutch here, why is it that descriptions of Standard Dutch normally describe its front mid-closing dipthongs as [ɛi̯] and [œy̯] when from whenever I hear Dutch they sound more like [aɪ̯] and [aʏ̯] respectively? For example, from listening to Over de muur as sung by Union Of Sound (not Klein Orkest) I hear Berl[aɪ̯]n and vr[aɪ̯]h[aɪ̯]d and so on.

(Oh, of course, this is Polder Dutch, which is prevalent in the Randstad and is becoming de facto standard in the Netherlands today.)

[Raphael]

I should note that its StG cognate, laufen, means 'run' not 'dance' or 'leap'.

Edit: You obviously know this, but others may not.

Oh, of course I know what "laufen" means, but I didn't know that it was cognate to "leap".

[hwhatting]

What did Germanic languages use before they incorporated that one?

Apparently English had hlēapan, modern ‘leap’.

Gothic had plinsjan, which is a loan from Proto-Slavic. Looks like the Germanic people weren't good at dancing, liked it better when other peoples did it, and loaned their words for it

[Ephraim]

What did Germanic languages use before they incorporated that one?

Apparently English had hlēapan, modern ‘leap’.

Gothic had plinsjan, which is a loan from Proto-Slavic. Looks like the Germanic people weren't good at dancing, liked it better when other peoples did it, and loaned their words for it

Cleasby & Vigfusson has this to say about the word danz in Old Icelandic:

This word is certainly not Teutonic, but of Roman or perhaps Breton origin: the Icel. or Scandin. have no genuine word for dancing,—leika means ‘to play’ in general: the word itself (danza, danz, etc.) never occurs in the old Sagas or poetry, though popular amusements of every kind are described there; but about the end of the 11th century, when the Sagas of the bishops (BS.) begin, we find dance in full use, accompanied by songs which are described as loose and amorous

[Raphael]

Gothic had plinsjan, which is a loan from Proto-Slavic. Looks like the Germanic people weren't good at dancing, liked it better when other peoples did it, and loaned their words for it

Cleasby & Vigfusson has this to say about the word danz in Old Icelandic:

This word is certainly not Teutonic, but of Roman or perhaps Breton origin: the Icel. or Scandin. have no genuine word for dancing,—leika means ‘to play’ in general: the word itself (danza, danz, etc.) never occurs in the old Sagas or poetry, though popular amusements of every kind are described there; but about the end of the 11th century, when the Sagas of the bishops (BS.) begin, we find dance in full use, accompanied by songs which are described as loose and amorous

Wow. That's mind-blowing. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Thank you for that information!

[jal]

(Oh, of course, this is Polder Dutch, which is prevalent in the Randstad and is becoming de facto standard in the Netherlands today.)

I wouldn't say it's the de facto standard nowadays. Whether it'll actually conquer the whole of the Netherlands, in all sociolinguistics circles, is yet to be seen.


JAL

[Raphael]

Could someone provide a deeper explanation of the etymological and semantic history of the word "pudding" to me? Wikipedia says:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudding)

Pudding is a food which can either be a dessert or a savoury dish. In the United States, pudding means a sweet, milk-based dessert similar in consistency to egg-based custards, instant custards or a mousse, often commercially set using cornstarch, gelatin or similar coagulating agent. These puddings are known in some Commonwealth countries as custards (or curds) if they are egg-thickened, as blancmange if starch-thickened, and as jelly if gelatin-based. Pudding in America may also refer to other dishes such as bread pudding and rice pudding, although typically these names derive from their origin as British dishes. The modern American meaning of pudding as dessert has evolved from the original almost exclusive use of the term to describe savoury dishes, specifically those created using a process similar to that used for sausages, in which meat and other ingredients in mostly liquid form are encased and then steamed or boiled to set the contents.

In the United Kingdom, Ireland and some Commonwealth countries, the word pudding is used to describe both sweet and savoury dishes. Savoury puddings include Yorkshire pudding, black pudding, suet pudding and steak and kidney pudding. Sweet puddings include bread pudding, sticky toffee pudding, tapioca pudding, and rice pudding. Unless qualified, however, pudding usually means dessert and in the United Kingdom, pudding is used as a synonym for dessert.[1] Puddings made for dessert can be boiled and steamed puddings, baked puddings, bread puddings, batter puddings, milk puddings or jellies.[2]

Etymology

The word pudding is believed to come from the French boudin, which may derive from the Latin botellus, meaning "small sausage", referring to encased meats used in medieval European puddings.[3][2] Another proposed etymology is from the West German pud, meaning 'to swell'.[2]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary the word pudding dates to the 13th century. It refers to the entrails or stomach of a sheep, pig or other animal stuffed with meat, offal, suet, oatmeal and seasonings.[4] By the 1500s, the word was used to refer to the guts or entrails or the contents of other people's stomachs especially when pierced with a sword, as in battle.[5] The Oxford English Dictionary describes puddings also as 'a boiled, steamed or baked dish made with various sweet (or sometimes) savoury ingredients added to the mixture, typically including milk, eggs, and flour (or other starchy ingredients such as suet, rice, semolina, etc.), enclosed within a crust made from such a mixture'.[4]

...but, to be honest, that explanation raises more questions than it answers IMO. I'm not even sure whether I can see a Wittgensteinian family resemblance there, let alone any defining trait.

Being German, I grew up used to thinking of "pudding" as meaning either chocolate pudding or vanilla pudding, both of which have been usually made from instant powder mixed with milk here during my life time, though apparently, long ago, in the olden days, back when the rich men of Yorkshire were still desperately poor, these puddings were made by using some kind of milk-and-eggs mixture. Then, one day, I got to eat an English Christmas pudding, and though it tasted nice enough, it didn't come across as a "pudding" to me at all, more like a special type of cake. And a while later,I learned that there are even savoury things called "puddings".

Aaaargh! This is all very confusing. What does it mean? How did that happen? What's the deal?

[Travis B.]

Could someone provide a deeper explanation of the etymological and semantic history of the word "pudding" to me? Wikipedia says:

[snip]

...but, to be honest, that explanation raises more questions than it answers IMO. I'm not even sure whether I can see a Wittgensteinian family resemblance there, let alone any defining trait.

Being German, I grew up used to thinking of "pudding" as meaning either chocolate pudding or vanilla pudding, both of which have been usually made from instant powder mixed with milk here during my life time, though apparently, long ago, in the olden days, back when the rich men of Yorkshire were still desperately poor, these puddings were made by using some kind of milk-and-eggs mixture. Then, one day, I got to eat an English Christmas pudding, and though it tasted nice enough, it didn't come across as a "pudding" to me at all, more like a special type of cake. And a while later,I learned that there are even savoury things called "puddings".

Aaaargh! This is all very confusing. What does it mean? How did that happen? What's the deal?

To be completely honest, I as an American hadn't heard of the savory sense of 'pudding' until I was an adult, and then the idea of a savory 'pudding' is still quite odd (as are many British things). Of course, growing up the UK was a country (yes, I didn't quite think of it as a state composed of multiple countries at the time -- the difference between 'the UK' and 'England' is kind of blurry to many an American, hence 'the {queen,king} of England') with a queen which just happened to allegedly speak the same language as us Americans which the US happened to have broken off of centuries ago whose primary modern relevance was as a source of media, particularly music but also things such as Monty Python, in English. These days I find the UK to be far less foreign than I did as a kid (of course I consume much British media these days), but stuff like this still gets me.

[zompist]

Could someone provide a deeper explanation of the etymological and semantic history of the word "pudding" to me? Wikipedia says:
[...]

...but, to be honest, that explanation raises more questions than it answers IMO. I'm not even sure whether I can see a Wittgensteinian family resemblance there, let alone any defining trait.

A word meaning doesn't have to have any synchronic coherence, though it will usually turn out to have diachronic coherence. A 'trip' can mean a voyage or stumbling, which don't seem to have any relation, but historically do.

The history seems to be:

type of sausage—maybe particularly wet with blood and other liquids
> sausage extended with eggs and with oats, flour, or other grains
> sweet dishes make with eggs and grains
> (UK) dessert
> (US) custardy desserts

I suspect Wikipedia is misleading in suggesting that "pudding" alone may refer to savory dishes. "Black pudding" is a survival of the earliest sense and needs that adjective. I'm not British and might be wrong about this, but if someone asks "What's for pud?" I think they'd be surprised if it was blood sausage.

[Raphael]

The history seems to be:

type of sausage—maybe particularly wet with blood and other liquids
> sausage extended with eggs and with oats, flour, or other grains
> sweet dishes make with eggs and grains
> (UK) dessert
> (US) custardy desserts

Thank you! Now it makes sense.

I suspect Wikipedia is misleading in suggesting that "pudding" alone may refer to savory dishes. "Black pudding" is a survival of the earliest sense and needs that adjective. I'm not British and might be wrong about this, but if someone asks "What's for pud?" I think they'd be surprised if it was blood sausage.

Well, there's Yorkshire pudding.

[Richard W]

I suspect Wikipedia is misleading in suggesting that "pudding" alone may refer to savory dishes. "Black pudding" is a survival of the earliest sense and needs that adjective. I'm not British and might be wrong about this, but if someone asks "What's for pud?" I think they'd be surprised if it was blood sausage.

Well, there's Yorkshire pudding.

Which would also be very strange to have for pudding.

[Nortaneous]

A mince pie is made with mincemeat. What is mincemeat? It's made of fruits and nuts. It used to be made of minced meat with fruits added, like zereshk polo ba morgh or the various beef stews with raisins, but over time, the meat was omitted and the other ingredients were amplified. It's still properly thought of as a savory dish, but if its current prototypical form had existed in the time of cheap sugar from the West Indies, it'd likely have developed into a sweet one. But there's also the possibility that the expanded sense of pudding was caused by the invention of the pudding cloth. How early is the first attestation of "pudding" referring to a sweet dish without any clear savory origin?

And none of this explains Yorkshire pudding, which (surprisingly to me) doesn't seem to be a put-on like "Welsh rabbit".

[malloc]

It turns out that English "ape" derives from a proto-Germanic root. Considering the obvious absence of apes and monkeys in northern Europe, why did ancient Germanic peoples need a word for these animals?

[bradrn]

It turns out that English "ape" derives from a proto-Germanic root. Considering the obvious absence of apes and monkeys in northern Europe, why did ancient Germanic peoples need a word for these animals?

Wiktionary suggests:

Traditionally assumed to be an ancient loanword instead, ultimately probably from an unidentified non-Indo-European language of regions in Africa or Asia where monkeys are native.

[Travis B.]

It should be remembered that loanwords can go a long way -- consider Latin musa 'banana', which is most likely a Wanderwort ultimately from Trans-New Guinea of all things.