Ancient West Africa and Bantu Conlang 5 6 2020: Quick Grammar, Texts with Grammar Notes, Etc

[sasasha]

Bob, I just read this in your other thread. Posting the same long post in multiple places is surely going to lead to the rest of us feeling that we are being spammed. I, for better or worse, read through that post in its entirety once already.

There is also a frustrating amount of internal repetition within your post. For instance, we do not need to be told multiple times, in several different ways, the etymology or meaning of the word balaphone.

Why do you bulk out, and duplicate your posts so much? Do you think it makes them look more impressive? The opposite is true. All it does is waste our time.

I know you don't like being criticised. I know you have your own way of doing things, and perhaps it gives you pleasure. But I don't like being spammed, so I'm not going to make any response to the conlanging content of your posts unless you change the way you present them.

Instead I'm going to make a request of you. This isn't an official ZBB request; I'm no mod. It's a personal request, from someone who has been willing to respond to your work positively in the past, when it has been presented in a way which is respectful to and mindful of others. Next time you update us, please can you limit the information to only what you have not said anywhere else on the board. If you can manage that, I'll engage with your work.

If you don't want engagement with your work, fine, keep spamming us; I think you'll eventually be universally ignored.

[bradrn]

Bob, I just read this in your other thread. Posting the same long post in multiple places is surely going to lead to the rest of us feeling that we are being spammed. I, for better or worse, read through that post in its entirety once already.

There is also a frustrating amount of internal repetition within your post. For instance, we do not need to be told multiple times, in several different ways, the etymology or meaning of the word balaphone.

Why do you bulk out, and duplicate your posts so much? Do you think it makes them look more impressive? The opposite is true. All it does is waste our time.

I know you don't like being criticised. I know you have your own way of doing things, and perhaps it gives you pleasure. But I don't like being spammed, so I'm not going to make any response to the conlanging content of your posts unless you change the way you present them.

Instead I'm going to make a request of you. This isn't an official ZBB request; I'm no mod. It's a personal request, from someone who has been willing to respond to your work positively in the past, when it has been presented in a way which is respectful to and mindful of others. Next time you update us, please can you limit the information to only what you have not said anywhere else on the board. If you can manage that, I'll engage with your work.

If you don't want engagement with your work, fine, keep spamming us; I think you'll eventually be universally ignored.

I completely agree with this. In fact, I agree with it to such an extent that I feel I should repeat the key part here:

Posting the same long post in multiple places is surely going to lead to the rest of us feeling that we are being spammed. … There is also a frustrating amount of internal repetition within your post. For instance, we do not need to be told multiple times, in several different ways, the etymology or meaning of the word balaphone. … Why do you bulk out, and duplicate your posts so much? Do you think it makes them look more impressive? The opposite is true. All it does is waste our time.

Bob: if you want to get a more positive reaction to your posts, please do what sasasha says!

I do also want to add a couple of points which sasasha didn’t mention. My problem is basically this: the content of your posts could well be really interesting, but the way in which you present your posts makes them incredibly difficult and frustrating to read. For instance: your posts are very, very long; you use the bare minimum of explanation; and you don’t seem to give your posts any sort of obvious structure. All this makes it very difficult for readers to figure out what you’re trying to say.

Now, I have the same disclaimer to add as sasasha: I am no mod, and this is just a personal request. But please, please, could you at least try to incorporate some of our suggestions into your next post — it would make it far easier for us to engage with what you are sharing.

[KathTheDragon]

I'll chime in with the above even though this'll likely not be read. I have nothing against you, Bob, as a person. It's really just the way you write your posts and present yourself. Edit down your posts to just the minimum required information, and then build up from there. Cut the personal anecdotes, nobody cares.

[masako]

I'll bet 8 billion dollars that Bob is going to ignore every single recommendation.

I'll take my money in monthly payments.

[elemtilas]

I'll bet 8 billion dollars that Bob is going to ignore every single recommendation.

I'll take my money in monthly payments.

I'd take that bet! (But you'll get paid in Z-dollars.)

I'd hazard the guess, reading the last couple pronouncements from the Ivroid Tower that Larry will nòt, in fact, ignore every recommendation, but will in fact take a few moments of his precious research time to pen an entirely new diatribe against all you troglodytes here in ZBBland in response to said recommendations!

My recommendation: don't feed the troll.

[sasasha]

I'll bet 8 billion dollars that Bob is going to ignore every single recommendation.

I'll take my money in monthly payments.

I'd take that bet! (But you'll get paid in Z-dollars.)

I'd hazard the guess, reading the last couple pronouncements from the Ivroid Tower that Larry will nòt, in fact, ignore every recommendation, but will in fact take a few moments of his precious research time to pen an entirely new diatribe against all you troglodytes here in ZBBland in response to said recommendations!

My recommendation: don't feed the troll.

Fair. We'll see what happens.

[masako]

My recommendation: don't feed the troll.

Aha!!! He has many of us "blocked".

Once again, demonstrating his unequalled intellect.

[Bob]

I made a website for this summer's project with Okrand Atlantean by the maker of Klingon and my Ancient Africa Conlang.

New Texts in Okrand Atlantean with an Ancient African Conlang: Medieval West Africa Texts
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... w=flipcard

Images for Previous Post
https://naviklingon.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... w=flipcard

...

Updates to current conlang studies and other research:
I'm mostly focusing on this Okrand Atlantean Language Project the last few months. I'm also studying Sumerian writing and dictionaries, some grammar.

Recently I did a quick survey of the Zompist conlangs. [ To read more about this, please see my main Okrand Atlantean Language thread and see the post from this date. ]

...
...

Text C, Page K.

Lines 1813 to 15 are Kante clan ancestors, while lines 1816 to 28 are praise-names for Sumamuru, emphasizing his occult power and ruthlessness.

Okrand Atlantean Language:
Bideg-en 1813-15 nisop-entem yek-ag Tak-ag kel-etoh, dos bideg-en 1816-28 Nartak-wer-tem sher godas-entem kel-etoh, datah-tem tugin gim shodlek-tem sagayt-e.

Ancient Africa Conlang:
Wa=stari 1813-15 wa-tangaza-wa mi=Kante-koo-kale, wa-po-wa-wa wa=stari 1816-28 wa-wa-wa vi=nnounoudoukoye muda.wa Ssumamuru, cchigi-palapalabu ki=bbilikimo-a na ki=pasipo.huruma.


Text C, Page L.

Note 1825.

King of Yesteryear.

( Or King of Tradition / Traditional King. )

Praise name for Sumamuru strongly suggesting a pagan versus Moslem theme in the epic, with Son-Jara representing the Moslem forces. Some have suggested this theme as the key to understanding the real meaning of the epic.

Okrand Atlantean Conlang:
N 1825.
Makit Yanut-losh-ag.
( Ik Makit Mulish-ag / Makit Mulish-mil. )
Godas Nartak-wer-tem sher
deg wesod-tem net teyim-tem Dukap-ag sok Yadlug-irag
deg okwep-entem hen it pen-e,
Aktirak-wer-esh deywit-en Yadlug-irag pebon-e.
Luden porek-mig shilen-etoh
yos teyim neb kolish wesod-nuk-ag
doyin-irtem sher es-etot .

Ancient Africa Conlang:
N 1825. M=falne m=bbidu-aa.
( Au M=falne Ma=pokeo-aa / M=falne M=pokeo. )
Nnounoudoukoy muda.wa Ssumamuru a-wa ki=dokezi-zito kwa n=zzoea amba-a ttombolombo a-pambana.na-a aafangmeitsho mu=homa.ya.baridi, kama Sson-Jara a-ish-dalili =sshogo ki=aafangmeitsho. Wa=tu-inge wa-li-toa.shauri n=zzoea huyu a-wa u=kunguo cchigi-fahamu-aa ma=elezo-a.hakika homa.ya.baridi-aa.


Text C, Page M.

It seems more likely, however, that many other themes are of equal importance. In any case, Islam in Mande tradition syncretized with the pagan forces it fights. See notes for lines 325ff.

Okrand Atlantean Conlang:
Im doker-ra bet kaper-ekik
deg teyim-en shib-mig tuler-mig
gobeb-in momeh-etoh.
Im-tem deb iwek-i, im shib-an nibish-i,
Yadlug-ir hiwak-tem wesod-ag neb net
lishom-enes dukap-mig bodeh-imot
deg maram-etot.
Bideg-entem 325ff sher pedlim-tem gamos-yoh.

Ancient Africa Conlang:
A-gginchi-elekea, walakini, amba-a n=zzoea-ingine-ingi wa-muhimu wa-hawa-zaidi.
Ggafu, aafangmeitsho mu==ma=pokeo-mmande a-li-ungana naa =shogo ki=tombolombo a-o-piga-a.
N-uona barua.fupi juu.ya wa=stari 325ff.

Text C, Page N.

1835 The audience acquainted with the legend understands at this point that Sumamuru's occult power enables him to hear his balaphone no matter where he is at the time it is played.

Okrand Atlantean Conlang:
1835 Pogash-tem panneb-e deg gawnut
won doyin-etot
deg dalah nartak-wer-ag shinup-tem tugin shitah bog-idimot
yos law-nar-tem lih yos tikud-etot
dos darim-tem lih narem-eshgetot.

Ancient Africa Conlang:
1835 Watu.waliokuja.kusikiliza wa-o-jua-a hekaya wa-fahamu-a hu==mu m=bilikimo Ssumamuru-aa a-ish-weza ku-sikia bala-a mu==mw=ahali-ote a-wa a-po-liw-hu-tumia.


Text C, Page O.

Note 1837.

Sumamuru suspects the bard of being a jinn. See the note for line 103. Because Doka the Cat was able to penetrate and survive Sumamuru's occult world.

Okrand Atlantean Conlang:
N 1837. Nartak-wer tokit gehop-etot yos shamad kewin es-etot.
( Bideg-tem 103 sher pedlim-tem gamos-yoh. )
Dob Ketak Mekas
luweh-tem nartak-wer-ag
nageb gim yinub bog-imot.

Ancient Africa Conlang:
N 1837. Ssumamuru amba-a m=shairi a-sshuku-wa kkyikyilantena.
( N-uona barua.fupi juu.ya m=stari 103. )
Kwa.sababu Doka Paka a-li-weza ku-ingia na ku-pona.katika.hatari kkiendecheka Ssumamuru-aa.



Text C Done.

( Texts remaining to be added: D E F G.

[Bob]

Sorry that I don't have much time to read replies.

Oh, such charmers we have here!

I read the replies from Wed Jul 08, 2020.

I hope I can get to the recommendations, whereever they are.

This one is not fair:
bradrn
Wed Jul 08, 2020

I already explained that people recommended I make two separate threads for two separate languages. So now I'm adding posts to these threads where I give bilingual translations of English translations of The Epic of Son-Jara.

Duplicate parts about the etymology of balaphone? Well, there's notes from the book and then there's notes by me. If they ever repeat the same information, it's because the project is huge and I can't keep track of it all. But those repetitions are few, it's mostly just me giving translations in case anyone wants to puzzle them out at any point or just realize that I have done a lot here and that what I've said about my own conlang creation and study in the past was indeed true.

Now I have complaints about how I present my work.

Other years I have had complaints about how I had yet to present my work.

It took me a lot of time to translate and then type this up. Splitting it all up by language would take way too much time. To the delight of such parties, though, I recently only presented some thoughts of mine on the excellent and delightful Zompist aka Mark Rosenfelder conlangs and associated fiction only on my Okrand Atlantean Language thread. Here only did I give its beginning and a reference to where the rest may be found. I suppose that one deserves its own thread. I should do that.

...

This request is not so good, though. What if someone is interested in the Okrand Atlantean conlang but not the Ancient Africa conlang? And visa versa? If a new post is obviously the same as just was posted in the other one, you could just skip it.

It's too late for that recommendation. Earlier, people asked that I have one thread for each conlang and stick to it. Now I've done that and some replies here say I should combine threads. I don't see the point. Again, the two threads exist in case someone is interested in one of the conlangs and not the other. I suppose it makes a bit of sense. Atlantean is a huge conlang, if I then introduced a second grammar in the same thread, wow, that would be too much to keep up with. Now they both have nice, neat threads for this project.

[masako]

I expect to be paid.

[bradrn]

I already explained that people recommended I make two separate threads for two separate languages. So now I'm adding posts to these threads where I give bilingual translations of English translations of The Epic of Son-Jara.

…

It's too late for that recommendation. Earlier, people asked that I have one thread for each conlang and stick to it. Now I've done that and some replies here say I should combine threads. I don't see the point. Again, the two threads exist in case someone is interested in one of the conlangs and not the other. I suppose it makes a bit of sense. Atlantean is a huge conlang, if I then introduced a second grammar in the same thread, wow, that would be too much to keep up with. Now they both have nice, neat threads for this project.

I think there may have been a miscommunication here. When we asked you for two threads, we wanted you to put the Atlantean stuff in one and the Bantu conlang stuff in another. But that isn’t what you did: you made two threads, but you continued to post both the Atlantean stuff and the Bantu stuff to both threads. So, rather than separating out the two parts like we requested, you instead continued to post exactly the same thing — but you posted it twice instead of once.

It took me a lot of time to translate and then type this up. Splitting it all up by language would take way too much time.

As far as I can see, ‘splitting it all up by language’ (which is what we requested) involves only a bit of copy-and-pasting from one post to another. I am hardly one to be giving advice here — I am bad enough at managing my own time — but may I suggest that if your time is so desperately limited that you don’t even have enough time for five minutes of copy-and-pasting, then you have some major problems with your time management which you need to solve.

Duplicate parts about the etymology of balaphone? Well, there's notes from the book and then there's notes by me. If they ever repeat the same information, it's because the project is huge and I can't keep track of it all.

And this is the problem with organisation I mentioned earlier. If you had made it clear that one of the notes was from the book and the other one was your own, then we wouldn’t have been confused as to why you mentioned it twice.

Now I have complaints about how I present my work.

Other years I have had complaints about how I had yet to present my work.

I think this might be another miscommunication. Before, when we couldn’t see your work, of course we were asking you to share what you were working on! It’s certainly good that you’re doing that now — but now, when you share your work, you present it in a very confusing way. We are only asking you to edit your posts a bit to make them a bit less confusing for us to read.

I expect to be paid.

I don’t have 8 million dollars on me, sorry. Would chocolate money or similar be an acceptable substitute?

[alice]

Bob: Once is enough, and preferably in an easily digestible form. There's no need to post the same several pages to two separate threads. Is a reader supposed to read both in the hope or fear of finding some subtle differences?

[sasasha]

Wow, Bob. You just posted the exact same translations in two threads again, with no glosses and not even any of your "grammar notes". That means you posted what is to us meaningless gibberish, twice.

I used to extend you respect and sympathy; now I think you're actively trying to piss us off. I wanted to be interested in what you were doing, because enthusiasm is a good thing, because everyone is unique, because not everyone has the same opportunities in life or the same self-awareness. But you just get a kick out of frustrating other people, don't you?

Good luck with learning to listen to and extend a minimum baseline of respect to other humans.

[bradrn]

Wow, Bob. You just posted the exact same translations in two threads again, with no glosses and not even any of your "grammar notes". That means you posted what is to us meaningless gibberish, twice.

Unless I’m missing something, I’m pretty sure his last post didn’t have any glosses either.

[Vardelm]

Edited for reasons.

[Bob]

Unless I’m missing something, I’m pretty sure his last post didn’t have any glosses either.

AND he has the audacity to make this request:

One thing that the Zompist conlangs have over conlangs from famous books, movies, and tv is that they're more often well-presented in terms of grammars, dictionaries, and interlinear glossed texts.

I would like to request, however, that all sample texts in the Zompist conlangs, aka Mark Rosenfelder conlangs, be interlinear glossed.

It's a legitimate request. I think interlinear glosses are important. Do you want to see interlinear glossed texts by me?

Here's a bunch:

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

Then here's the homepage to my webpages:

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

I don't have a lot of time online or enthusiasm for conlangs but I'm trying to read some of the advice that various sages on this group are providing, even if I can't reply to it all by tagging each sage by quoting them.

In the threads for both languages, I post materials sufficient that anyone could make their own glosses. I even say clearly that most of the words of the Ancient Africa language are based on Swahili. I plan to post materials that gloss some parts of these texts but for now I just want to type it up, with grammar notes, and go from there. If you examine the grammars, it's not super complicated stuff that would be hard to gloss on your own.

There's idiomatic differences from English, sure enough. But I think that by and large, there's enough in there that could just be tentatively glossed just from the prose English and the grammar.

[Vardelm]

Edited for reasons.

[masako]

You're a fraud.

Completely out of character for me, but...that's a bit harsh.

He's not really a fraud, just a quack. Reminiscent of Edo Nyland, he's done his own work, it's just not scholarly, or worthwhile.

[Vardelm]

Edited for reasons.

[bradrn]

Edited for reasons.

I think he means that https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard links to a list of glossed texts — so you have to follow the list of links there to find the glosses. And, indeed, I can find some fairly easily using that method — e.g. https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard.

Edited for reasons.

That is indeed a puzzling question. I’m beginning to (reluctantly) come around to the view that he just wants praise and is not here for any other purpose. (That could be wrong, of course, and I desperately hope it is; Bob, if you see this, the best thing you could do to let us know that you are acting in good faith is to improve your posts by incorporating our suggestions!)

Edited for reasons.

I’m not sure that’s fair at all. There are a lot of adjectives (EDIT: nouns! sorry!) you could use to describe Bob, but ‘fraud’ isn’t one of them — I get the feeling that he genuinely knows what he’s doing, even though the awful formatting of his posts means that we don’t actually get to see that.