Twin Aster

[bradrn]

I like the aesthetic! Reminds me vaguely of Sanskrit.

[Man in Space]

I like the aesthetic! Reminds me vaguely of Sanskrit.

Thanks! This is kind of that, yeah…

Right, this was supposed to be a hymn, wasn't it?

System: root – perfect fourth – perfect fifth – octave – perfect fourth, 8^va

…ksryấvargv tvá: brqranya târaqhidga, târaqhya brqranidga…

ksyấva

pass

-rg

EXP

-v

M

tvá

this.way

baqrấni

live

<r>

AUG

<X>

DVB

-ya

ELATIVE

taqh

die

<r>

AUG

<X>

DVB

-idga

ILLATIVE

taqh

die

<r>

AUG

<X>

DVB

-ya

ELATIVE

baqrấni

live

<r>

AUG

<X>

DVB

-idga

ILLATIVE

'…and so would [I] pass: out of life, into death; out of death, into life…'

So we've got:

V́ V V́ | V V V V V V | V V V V V V

just on basis of the presence or absence of the accent. Put another way:

H L H | L L L L L L | L L L L L L L |

Rule: Tetraconsonantal onsets create make an L into an H:

H L H | H L L L L L | L L L H L L

This type of verse is called a…wait a minute…

-qâ ACTIVE PARTICIPLE

*khukhsâ-qâ > khuksqâ 'swinging'

*twáayu > tvai 'word'
*twá~twaayu > *tátwayu (not *ttwayu because reasons; looks like the avoidance of a geminate blocked the loss of the stressed vowel, which basically otherwise would've deleted) > tátvai 'verse, meter'
Also, there is concord between adjectives and nouns. Adjectives will agree with the final (semi)vowel of the noun, so here we would have *tátvai khuksqâi, but *-âi- is disallowed, so it simply drops—we instead get tátvai khuksqi 'passage verse' (more literally 'swinging verse', but the implication here is of a door allowing passage between two places).

This type of verse:

[ prelude ] | H L L U L L | U L L H L L, where
- H is an obligatorily heavy syllable,
- L is an obligatorily light syllable, and
- U can be either syllable type,

is called tátvai khuksqi 'passage verse'. Generally you have a "preamble" of a few syllables followed by two six-syllable palindromic 3-foot units. Barring any "sandhi" rules, H syllables are intoned at the fifth, L at the root, and U—regardless of whether they would otherwise be an H or L syllable—is at the fourth. So the general pattern is:

[prelude] | 5 0 0 4 0 0 | 4 0 0 5 0 0

I'll have to work out some interesting stuff to wreck the system with tomorrow, it's late here.

[Man in Space]

The plains of Gand in eastern Kéntagantene were known to the early Vyâ, who record the name thereof as Sknagndya; this suggests that the original Vyâ form was something like *skanagandya—the *sk- must be as such because if the stop were voiced *-g-, such as with the predecessors of the Archaic Vyâ -g- infix, this would have yielded ^XZgnagndya instead as voicing regressed in clusters not involving infixed *-g-; the lack of an accent implies that the word was a single phonological unit as opposed to a collocation, as based on compound rules in Proto-Vyâ, the two-word phrase *skana gandya would yield ^XSknagndyá. Despite its appearance in Vyâ records as a single word, the phrase was actually two words, *ъsknь gɔɔddь 'high lowlands'.

[Man in Space]

Proto-Macro-Jädewan reconsidered

*m *n m n
*p *b *t *d *k p b t d k
*θ *ð *s *z *ʃ *ʒ *h ¢ ð s z š ž h
*ɬ ł
*w *ɹ *l *j w r l y

*æ *ɛ *e *i *a *ɔ *o *u ä e ê i a o ô u + high-tone a̋ é e̋ í á ó ő ú

łämzôhke¢ kêžaar¢ hóš

łämz

exist

-ôh

NMLZ

=ke¢

NEG

kêža

consume

-a

PST

-r¢

PROT

hóš

3M.COLL

'inexistence has defeated the men'

łämzôhke¢ kêžaar¢áy hóš

łämz

exist

-ôh

NMLZ

=ke¢

NEG

kêža

consume

-a

PST

-r¢

PROT

=áy

VOL

hóš

3M.COLL

'inexistence has conquered the men'

šlól anðlőtste̋ye ¢wän

šlól

2SG.F

anðlőš

stay

-Ø

PROG

-ste̋ye

LOC.APPL

¢wän

hereabouts

'you are here'

šlól anðlőšniste̋ye ¢wän

šlól

2SG.F

anðlőš

stay

-n

ITER

-ste̋ye

LOC.APPL

¢wän

hereabouts

'you come here a lot'

šlól anðlőšyäste̋ye ¢wän

šlól

2SG.F

anðlőš

stay

-yä

HAB

-ste̋ye

LOC.APPL

¢wän

hereabouts

'you live here'

šlól anðlőš¢iste̋ye ¢wän

šlól

2SG.F

anðlőš

stay

-ð

FREQ

-ste̋ye

LOC.APPL

¢wän

hereabouts

'you loiter here, you hang around here'

šlól anðlőšir¢ste̋ye ¢wän

šlól

2SG.F

anðlőš

stay

-r¢

PROT

-ste̋ye

LOC.APPL

¢wän

hereabouts

'you wear out your welcome here'

šlól anðlőšőste̋ye ¢wän

šlól

2SG.F

anðlőš

stay

-ő

INCH

-ste̋ye

LOC.APPL

¢wän

hereabouts

'you arrive here, you set down here'

šlól anðlőšpiste̋ye ¢wän

šlól

2SG.F

anðlőš

stay

-bi

CESS

-ste̋ye

LOC.APPL

¢wän

hereabouts

'you leave here; you die here'

[Travis B.]

You need your language's orthography to be all uppercase and to use overstruck slashes and dashes as its primary diacritics.

[sasasha]

[prelude] | 5 0 0 4 0 0 | 4 0 0 5 0 0

I like this! Is 0 the root? In which case, more normally, you'd use 1.

[Man in Space]

You need your language's orthography to be all uppercase and to use overstruck slashes and dashes as its primary diacritics.

There's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.

[prelude] | 5 0 0 4 0 0 | 4 0 0 5 0 0

I like this! Is 0 the root? In which case, more normally, you'd use 1.

Thank you for the notes and the correction. Yeah, it's the root there.

I think I'm going to revert the changes I made to Proto-O (and thence O).

[bradrn]

You need your language's orthography to be all uppercase and to use overstruck slashes and dashes as its primary diacritics.

There's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.

Saanich, natively SENĆOŦEN.

[Travis B.]

You need your language's orthography to be all uppercase and to use overstruck slashes and dashes as its primary diacritics.

There's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.

Saanich, natively SENĆOŦEN.

Actually, it apparently uses overstruck apostrophes and underscores too.

[Man in Space]

You need your language's orthography to be all uppercase and to use overstruck slashes and dashes as its primary diacritics.

There's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.

Saanich, natively SENĆOŦEN.

Thanks!

Redoing Wǫkratąk…because I can't leave well enough alone with this POS language family…

Proto-Wǫkratąk (hereinafter PW because that is a pain to have to type or paste repeatedly)

/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/mb nd ŋg/ <ṃb ṇd ṇg>
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/h/ <h>
/w r (j)/ <w r (y)>

*y tends not to show up in roots but does in some affixes.

/ɔ ɔ̃ a ã ɛ ɛ̃ i/ <o ǫ a ą e ę i>

More: show

C₁C₂C₃

Syllables could be of the form C(w/y)V(w/y/N)(C)

V > Ø / #CVC_C
Final high vowels lost
Final *e > i

boda > boda
boda-g > bodg

CǫCraCąk

*√wkt/o 'to order, to command'

*-ar- NMLZ

CVCVCV
nasal theme vowel marks passive voice

C₁enC₂VC₃i > C₁ęC₂VC₃i > C₁ęC₂C₃i > C₁ęC₂C₃
bendVhi > będVhi > będhi > będh > bęęd

wo<n>ko<ra>t-anki > wonkratanki > wõkratãki > wõkratãk
he-wo<n>ko<ra>ta<n>ki > hewnkoratanki > he~wkoratnki > he~wkorantki > he~wkorãtki
C₁C₂C₃

<ra> dative, <-anki> collectivizer

wokot-e > wokti
wokot-i > wokt

dlt

dalat-

dalat-i > dalt
dalat-e > dalti
da<n>lat-e > danlati > dalati

garat-e > gart-i
garat-anki > gartank
ga<ra>rat-i > garrat

hęwkorątki ~ wǫkratąk

*C₁ęC₂C₃i > C₁C₂C₃

he-wenket-i > hew~keti > hęwket >> huket

There seems to have been a profound and progressive vowel harmony at some point because the stems generally carry a theme vowel with them. Over time, the development of various affixes screwed this up to a fantastic degree, but the person-marking suffixes of the verb often (q.v.) echoed the theme vowel. The basic stem in PW was of the shape *C₁TC₂TC₃-. The person suffixes worked thus:

1SG *C₁TC₂TC₃-Ty
1PL *C₁TC₂TC₃-Tn
2 *C₁TC₂TC₃-T
3 *C₁TC₂TC₃-wT

Great! The exception to this was the past-tense marker, which was the vowel *-i- irrespective of any theme vowels. But that's it. So, given a form like (say) *√wkt/o, the root is *w-k-t and the theme vowel is *o, and it looks like:

Nonpast

1SG *wokotoy
1PL *wokoton
2 *wokoto
3 *wokotwo

Past

1SG *wokotiy
1PL *wokotin
2 *wokoti
3 *wokotwi

On the way from PW to Archaic W (AW), a few developments of note occurred.

1. V > Ø / #CVC_CV
This change right here did massive damage.

Nonpast

1SG *woktoy
1PL *wokton
2 *wokto
3 *wokotwo

Past

1SG *woktiy
1PL *woktin
2 *wokti
3 *wokotwi

2. Final high vowels lost
Confounding Doc Brown, this somehow affects the past alone rather than the present.

Nonpast

1SG *woktoy
1PL *wokton
2 *wokto
3 *wokotwo

Past

1SG *woktiy
1PL *woktin
2 *wokt
3 *wokotw > *wokoto

3. Final *e > i
…Actually, not all that relevant here. Moving on.

4. Nasal vowel collapse
…and here we go.

Nonpast

1SG *woktoy
1PL *woktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wokotwo

Past

1SG *woktiy
1PL *woktį > becomes *woktę because there is no ^Xį in Ba Sing Se
2 *wokt
3 *wokotw > *wokoto

5. Glides off into the distance
Right, so we have these *w and *y in the ultima that got there because of these verb endings. How do we get rid of them while leaving a tantalizing clue as to their presence?

Like this:

Nonpast

1SG *woktô
1PL *woktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wokôto

Past

1SG *woktî
1PL *woktę
2 *wokt
3 *wokoto

6. The Best or Worst Syncope Rule
Before long vowels, a short vowel dropped. (This appears to include nasal vowels, which appear to have been pronounced phonetically long.)

Nonpast

1SG *wktô
1PL *wktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wkôto

Past

1SG *wktî
1PL *wktę
2 *wokt
3 *wokoto

7. Length-be-gone
And then the phonemic length distinction was toast.

Nonpast

1SG *wkto
1PL *wktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wkoto

Past

1SG *wkti
1PL *wktę
2 *wokt
3 *wokoto

This…

This…this is…

I love this.

This, theoretically, means the only "hash collisions" would occur in verbs with *i as a theme vowel (in the 1SG the past and nonpast are the same) or *e as a theme vowel (the past and nonpast of the 1PL are the same). We get by in English with "I cut it"…and probably a few other verbs I cannot identify offhand because I want to…I think they'll do.

So the citation form of the root could well just be the 1SG nonpast: √wkto.

[Man in Space]

Dude, you guys have no idea how absolutely giddy that made me…like a mad scientist or something. It's alive, &c.

So now, I get to figure out how to make this utterly fail.

More: show

All right. The obvious thing to do is, reduplication, so let's start there. Since PW stems were of the form CVCVC-, with the last vowel doing whatever it does, there was an epenthetic vowel making it CVCVC<V>CVCVC-, and because progressive vowel harmony this vowel was the theme vowel:

Nonpast

1SG *wokotowokotoy
1PL *wokotowokoton
2 *wokotowokoto
3 *wokotowokotwo

Past

1SG *wokotowokotiy
1PL *wokotowokotin
2 *wokotowokoti
3 *wokotowokotwi

…eugh.

All right, so our first rule, 1. V > Ø / #CVC_CV, doesn't wreck this to an absurd degree:

Nonpast

1SG *woktowokotoy
1PL *woktowokoton
2 *woktowokoto
3 *woktowokotwo

Past

1SG *woktowokotiy
1PL *woktowokotin
2 *woktowokoti
3 *woktowokotwi

And then repeat:

Nonpast

1SG *woktowkotoy
1PL *woktowkoton
2 *woktowkoto
3 *woktowkotwo

Past

1SG *woktowkotiy
1PL *woktowkotin
2 *woktowkoti
3 *woktowkotwi

Thanks to the nature of the root shapes, this is basically regular and generalizable to

C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-

Which is, still, incredibly hideous. But a thought occurs…suppose this develops like this:

C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃- > C₁TC₂C₃T:C₁C₂TC₃- > C₁TC₂T:C₂TC₃- > C₁TC₂T:yTC₃- by dissimilation > C₁C₂TyTC₃-

Hm.

Hold up. Suppose the finial vowel were *i:

C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-i > C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃, rule 2 doesn't apply, neither does rule 3, nor rule 4. Rule 5 would apply but this isn't in the ultima, so I have a little freedom here…no, wait, technically it is. But only in the one past form…????

C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-oy > C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-oy (huh, rule 2 does not apply here…) > C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-oy > C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-ô > C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂C₃o unless something drastic happens. Well, OK, try the consonant contortery I proposed above: C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-oy > C₁TC₂TC₂TC₃-oy > C₁TC₂TyTC₃-oy. But where from there? The ending is going to end up as -ô, and then the vowel in the penult, being short, is going to drop, leaving us with the ultimate form C₁oC₂oyC₃o. The 1PL will be the same, but nasal C₁oC₂oyC₃ǫ.

Ah, I see what's going on: The 2 form is giving me a bluescreen. C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-o > C₁TC₂T:C₂TC₃-o which will ultimately give us C₁C₂TyTC₃o. So for √wkto it'd be wkoyoto.

3: C₁TC₂C₃TC₁C₂TC₃-wo woktowkotwo (Ugh, I wouldn't want to say that either) > wokôkotwo > wokôkôto…hmm. I would have had wokôyôto.

You know what, it was better with the consonants.

wokoyto : wokoytǫ : wkoyoto : wokôyôto

vs.

wokokto : wokoktǫ : wkokoto : wokôkôto

as against unreduplicated

wkto : wktǫ : wokto : wkoto

If we take the syncope rule as written then the first syllable vowel in 3 drops.

Interestingly…if we did go the -y- route:

1: C-C-CV : CVCVyCV
2: CVC-CV : CCVyVCV
3: C-CVCV : CCVyVCV

This is a problem, as there is a hash collision between 2 and 3! More abstractly, the difference between 1 and 3 (the difference in nasality in 1 is ignored for the sake of convenience) is that the second vocalic slot is filled in the latter; between 1 and 2, the presence of a vowel in the first vocalic slot. It happens that, in the 1 and 3 forms, it's predictable on both sides: CCCV : CVCVyCV, CCVCV : CVCVyVCV. So, perhaps we can conclude that we can blow this thing apart by swapping the -CV-? Which would give us

1: C-C-CV : CVCVyCV
2: CVC-CV : CVyCVCV
3: C-CVCV : CCVyVCV

or, more concretely

1: wkto : wokoyto
2: wokto : wokyoto
3: wkoto : wkoyoto

This will totally not cause problems in the near future.

Also, we had that infix *-rV- that did…something…

Nonpast

1SG *wokorotoy > wokrotoy > wokrotôy > wokrto
1PL *wokoroton > no
2 *wokoroto > wokroto > wokroto ???
3 *wokorotwo > wokrôto ≥ wkroto

Past

1SG *wokorotiy > wokrti
1PL *wokorotin > ugh
2 *wokoroti > wokroti > wokrot
3 *wokorotwi > wokrôto > wkroto (hash collision with 3NPST. Again, I can live with it.)

Oh dang I have to do this with the reduplicated forms…uh…

Nonpast

1SG *wokorotowokotoy > wokrotowokotoy (?!) > wokrotowokto
1PL *wokorotowokoton
2 *wokorotowokoto > wokrotowokoto > wokrotowokoto
3 *wokorotowokotwo > wokrotowkoto

UGLY. I need to think of something creative but internally consistent.

CVCrVCV-CVCCV // CVCrCV
CVCrVCV-CVCVCV // CVCrVCV
CVCrVCV-CCVCV// CCrVCV

1: C-C-CV : CVCVyCV
2: CVC-CV : CVyCVCV
3: C-CVCV : CCVyVCV

This implies that the operation is basically a matrix:

XXV > VV^yV
v
VrV > ?

VXV > V^yVV
v
V^rVV > ?

XVV > XV^y2V
v
X^rVV > ?

wkto : wokoyto :: wokrto : wokroyto
wokto : woykoto :: wokroto : woykroto
wkoto : wkoyoto :: wkroto : wkroyoto

But, since the verbnoun would stand a greater chance of becoming not quite replaced because reasons…

CVCVC-*ay, which gained a suffix *-nki in the plural, but we're concerned elsewise. wokotay > woktay > woktâ > wkta. This would probably be used for a few older nouns, most of them being reformed by analogy with the plural to something more like wokta.
wokotowokotay > woktowokotay > woktowokta, maybe by analogy woktawokta?

So CVCVC-aynki. Still technically within phonotactics, but a massive beast. Let's use *√wkto again, why not. wokotaynki > woktaynk > woktaynki. OK. Before applying Rule 5, we note this cluster really sucks, and drop the first element, leaving us > woktank. And then, pursuant to Rule 7, -VNC sequences nasalized the vowel (unless it was restored by analogy in another form). So…woktąk. But wokotowokotaynki > woktowokotaynki > woktowokotaynk > woktowokotąk…nah, we'll go with woktawoktąk.

All right, so we've got these basic…transformations, I guess. The base, the reduplicand (2), the *r-stems (R), and the *r-stem reduplicands (R2).

OK. Progress. Compare that with the un…whatevered forms.

Past

1SG *wokorotowokotiy
1PL *wokorotowokotin
2 *wokorotowokoti
3 *wokorotowokotwi

Oh. Uh. Verbal nominalizers. Right. Shoot.

OK, so we have our stem *wokot-, and to that we add something. It may have been…actually, it must've been an affix that postdates the vowel harmony thing? It ate it, whatever it was.

All right, so all this to say: So far we've got four basic stem forms: The base stem (B), the reduplicand (D), the *r-infixed (R), and the reduplicand of the *r-infixed (T). To illustrate (also, retcon: I said this was the verbnoun. It's the agent participle now, because I like that idea better).

√wkto – 'to irrigate'
B: wkto 'I irrigate' – wokta 'irrigator'
D: wokoyto 'something' – woktawokta 'something-er'
R: wokrto 'something else' – wokrta 'something else-er'
T: wokroyto 'sense a pattern?' – wokrotowokta 'senser of a pattern?'

So, generalized:

√C₁C₂C₃V
B: C₁C₂C₃V – C₁VC₂C₃a
D: C₁VC₂VyC₃V – C₁VC₂C₃aC₁VC₂C₃a
R: C₁VC₂rC₃V – C₁VC₂rC₃a
T: C₁VC₂rVyC₃V – C₁VC₂rVC₃VC₁VC₂C₃a

And with that, it's about to strike 2:30 AM here, and I am in dire need of sleep.

The below is for when I invariably have to quote this post to get at the formatted text:

More: show

Nonpast

1SG *wokotoy
1PL *wokoton
2 *wokoto
3 *wokotwo

Past

1SG *wokotiy
1PL *wokotin
2 *wokoti
3 *wokotwi

[bradrn]

Dude, you guys have no idea how absolutely giddy that made me…like a mad scientist or something. It's alive, &c.

Oh, I do! We’re conlangers too, remember! (I’ve been thinking of a somewhat similar system for my conlang Eŋes, actually.)

[Man in Space]

Dude, you guys have no idea how absolutely giddy that made me…like a mad scientist or something. It's alive, &c.

Oh, I do! We’re conlangers too, remember! (I’ve been thinking of a somewhat similar system for my conlang Eŋes, actually.)

You know what, fair.

Also, I wanted to hit this before I forgot. Root structure constraints.

OK. What you can't have:

- Two consecutive plosives of unlike voicing.
- Nasals immediately preceding prenasalized consonants.
- You can't have two of the same consonant in a row, with a very few exceptions, the most notable being √www 'weave'.
- ĝ (/ŋ/) can occur root-initially. In some of the daughters this was discouraged through various ways.
- y is almost entirely absent in roots. When it does occur it's typically in a loan or a neologism, and often wreaks havoc on the system.

[bradrn]

It makes me happy to see how much work you do on this. Sleep well!

[Man in Space]

It makes me happy to see how much work you do on this. Sleep well!

Thank you.

It is nice, to actually want to do things again.

[sasasha]

This is gearreateagearta. Curious to find out what the three ‘something else’ grades do.

[Man in Space]

Few things:

1. I have realized Bleffys Údd's situation was akin to that of a weeaboo assuming the imperial throne of Japan.
2. I think zompist wrote in one of his books about how…I want to say it was some faction of the Iroquois?…had this conceit where a man's sister's children inherit, basically because of the principle of "mama's baby, papa's maybe" and how it keeps things in the bloodline. I am trying to figure out how this works in practice with the Tim Ar.
3. I'm trying to write a basic reference grammar of CT for Fiat Lingua. What sorts of things should a good grammatical sketch include/would you like to see in such a sketch?

[Travis B.]

Bleffys Údd

Before I remembered that acutes aren't used in Welsh my first thought was that "that guy sounds awfully Welsh to me" to my very non-Welsh brain.

[Man in Space]

WIP:

[Darren]

Nice alternations! And I like the font too, what is it?