Twin Aster
Re: Twin Aster
I like the aesthetic! Reminds me vaguely of Sanskrit.
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- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
Thanks! This is kind of that, yeah…
Right, this was supposed to be a hymn, wasn't it?
System: root – perfect fourth – perfect fifth – octave – perfect fourth, 8va
…ksryấvargv tvá: brqranya târaqhidga, târaqhya brqranidga…
- ksyấva
- pass
- -rg
- EXP
- -v
- M
- tvá
- this.way
- baqrấni
- live
- <r>
- AUG
- <X>
- DVB
- -ya
- ELATIVE
- taqh
- die
- <r>
- AUG
- <X>
- DVB
- -idga
- ILLATIVE
- taqh
- die
- <r>
- AUG
- <X>
- DVB
- -ya
- ELATIVE
- baqrấni
- live
- <r>
- AUG
- <X>
- DVB
- -idga
- ILLATIVE
'…and so would [I] pass: out of life, into death; out of death, into life…'
So we've got:
V́ V V́ | V V V V V V | V V V V V V
just on basis of the presence or absence of the accent. Put another way:
H L H | L L L L L L | L L L L L L L |
Rule: Tetraconsonantal onsets create make an L into an H:
H L H | H L L L L L | L L L H L L
This type of verse is called a…wait a minute…
-qâ ACTIVE PARTICIPLE
*khukhsâ-qâ > khuksqâ 'swinging'
*twáayu > tvai 'word'
*twá~twaayu > *tátwayu (not *ttwayu because reasons; looks like the avoidance of a geminate blocked the loss of the stressed vowel, which basically otherwise would've deleted) > tátvai 'verse, meter'
Also, there is concord between adjectives and nouns. Adjectives will agree with the final (semi)vowel of the noun, so here we would have *tátvai khuksqâi, but *-âi- is disallowed, so it simply drops—we instead get tátvai khuksqi 'passage verse' (more literally 'swinging verse', but the implication here is of a door allowing passage between two places).
This type of verse:
[ prelude ] | H L L U L L | U L L H L L, where
- H is an obligatorily heavy syllable,
- L is an obligatorily light syllable, and
- U can be either syllable type,
is called tátvai khuksqi 'passage verse'. Generally you have a "preamble" of a few syllables followed by two six-syllable palindromic 3-foot units. Barring any "sandhi" rules, H syllables are intoned at the fifth, L at the root, and U—regardless of whether they would otherwise be an H or L syllable—is at the fourth. So the general pattern is:
[prelude] | 5 0 0 4 0 0 | 4 0 0 5 0 0
I'll have to work out some interesting stuff to wreck the system with tomorrow, it's late here.
- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
The plains of Gand in eastern Kéntagantene were known to the early Vyâ, who record the name thereof as Sknagndya; this suggests that the original Vyâ form was something like *skanagandya—the *sk- must be as such because if the stop were voiced *-g-, such as with the predecessors of the Archaic Vyâ -g- infix, this would have yielded XZgnagndya instead as voicing regressed in clusters not involving infixed *-g-; the lack of an accent implies that the word was a single phonological unit as opposed to a collocation, as based on compound rules in Proto-Vyâ, the two-word phrase *skana gandya would yield XSknagndyá. Despite its appearance in Vyâ records as a single word, the phrase was actually two words, *ъsknь gɔɔddь 'high lowlands'.
- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
Proto-Macro-Jädewan reconsidered
*m *n m n
*p *b *t *d *k p b t d k
*θ *ð *s *z *ʃ *ʒ *h ¢ ð s z š ž h
*ɬ ł
*w *ɹ *l *j w r l y
*æ *ɛ *e *i *a *ɔ *o *u ä e ê i a o ô u + high-tone a̋ é e̋ í á ó ő ú
łämzôhke¢ kêžaar¢ hóš
'inexistence has defeated the men'
łämzôhke¢ kêžaar¢áy hóš
'inexistence has conquered the men'
šlól anðlőtste̋ye ¢wän
'you are here'
šlól anðlőšniste̋ye ¢wän
'you come here a lot'
šlól anðlőšyäste̋ye ¢wän
'you live here'
šlól anðlőš¢iste̋ye ¢wän
'you loiter here, you hang around here'
šlól anðlőšir¢ste̋ye ¢wän
'you wear out your welcome here'
šlól anðlőšőste̋ye ¢wän
'you arrive here, you set down here'
šlól anðlőšpiste̋ye ¢wän
'you leave here; you die here'
*m *n m n
*p *b *t *d *k p b t d k
*θ *ð *s *z *ʃ *ʒ *h ¢ ð s z š ž h
*ɬ ł
*w *ɹ *l *j w r l y
*æ *ɛ *e *i *a *ɔ *o *u ä e ê i a o ô u + high-tone a̋ é e̋ í á ó ő ú
łämzôhke¢ kêžaar¢ hóš
- łämz
- exist
- -ôh
- NMLZ
- =ke¢
- NEG
- kêža
- consume
- -a
- PST
- -r¢
- PROT
- hóš
- 3M.COLL
'inexistence has defeated the men'
łämzôhke¢ kêžaar¢áy hóš
- łämz
- exist
- -ôh
- NMLZ
- =ke¢
- NEG
- kêža
- consume
- -a
- PST
- -r¢
- PROT
- =áy
- VOL
- hóš
- 3M.COLL
'inexistence has conquered the men'
šlól anðlőtste̋ye ¢wän
- šlól
- 2SG.F
- anðlőš
- stay
- -Ø
- PROG
- -ste̋ye
- LOC.APPL
- ¢wän
- hereabouts
'you are here'
šlól anðlőšniste̋ye ¢wän
- šlól
- 2SG.F
- anðlőš
- stay
- -n
- ITER
- -ste̋ye
- LOC.APPL
- ¢wän
- hereabouts
'you come here a lot'
šlól anðlőšyäste̋ye ¢wän
- šlól
- 2SG.F
- anðlőš
- stay
- -yä
- HAB
- -ste̋ye
- LOC.APPL
- ¢wän
- hereabouts
'you live here'
šlól anðlőš¢iste̋ye ¢wän
- šlól
- 2SG.F
- anðlőš
- stay
- -ð
- FREQ
- -ste̋ye
- LOC.APPL
- ¢wän
- hereabouts
'you loiter here, you hang around here'
šlól anðlőšir¢ste̋ye ¢wän
- šlól
- 2SG.F
- anðlőš
- stay
- -r¢
- PROT
- -ste̋ye
- LOC.APPL
- ¢wän
- hereabouts
'you wear out your welcome here'
šlól anðlőšőste̋ye ¢wän
- šlól
- 2SG.F
- anðlőš
- stay
- -ő
- INCH
- -ste̋ye
- LOC.APPL
- ¢wän
- hereabouts
'you arrive here, you set down here'
šlól anðlőšpiste̋ye ¢wän
- šlól
- 2SG.F
- anðlőš
- stay
- -bi
- CESS
- -ste̋ye
- LOC.APPL
- ¢wän
- hereabouts
'you leave here; you die here'
Re: Twin Aster
You need your language's orthography to be all uppercase and to use overstruck slashes and dashes as its primary diacritics.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Twin Aster
I like this! Is 0 the root? In which case, more normally, you'd use 1.
- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
There's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.
Thank you for the notes and the correction. Yeah, it's the root there.
I think I'm going to revert the changes I made to Proto-O (and thence O).
Re: Twin Aster
Saanich, natively SENĆOŦEN.Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:57 amThere's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
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Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
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Re: Twin Aster
Actually, it apparently uses overstruck apostrophes and underscores too.bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:24 amSaanich, natively SENĆOŦEN.Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:57 amThere's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
Thanks!bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:24 amSaanich, natively SENĆOŦEN.Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:57 amThere's a specific language you're referring to and I cannot find it on Google for some reason.
Redoing Wǫkratąk…because I can't leave well enough alone with this POS language family…
Proto-Wǫkratąk (hereinafter PW because that is a pain to have to type or paste repeatedly)
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/mb nd ŋg/ <ṃb ṇd ṇg>
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/h/ <h>
/w r (j)/ <w r (y)>
*y tends not to show up in roots but does in some affixes.
/ɔ ɔ̃ a ã ɛ ɛ̃ i/ <o ǫ a ą e ę i>
More: show
1SG *C₁TC₂TC₃-Ty
1PL *C₁TC₂TC₃-Tn
2 *C₁TC₂TC₃-T
3 *C₁TC₂TC₃-wT
Great! The exception to this was the past-tense marker, which was the vowel *-i- irrespective of any theme vowels. But that's it. So, given a form like (say) *√wkt/o, the root is *w-k-t and the theme vowel is *o, and it looks like:
Nonpast
1SG *wokotoy
1PL *wokoton
2 *wokoto
3 *wokotwo
Past
1SG *wokotiy
1PL *wokotin
2 *wokoti
3 *wokotwi
On the way from PW to Archaic W (AW), a few developments of note occurred.
1. V > Ø / #CVC_CV
This change right here did massive damage.
Nonpast
1SG *woktoy
1PL *wokton
2 *wokto
3 *wokotwo
Past
1SG *woktiy
1PL *woktin
2 *wokti
3 *wokotwi
2. Final high vowels lost
Confounding Doc Brown, this somehow affects the past alone rather than the present.
Nonpast
1SG *woktoy
1PL *wokton
2 *wokto
3 *wokotwo
Past
1SG *woktiy
1PL *woktin
2 *wokt
3 *wokotw > *wokoto
3. Final *e > i
…Actually, not all that relevant here. Moving on.
4. Nasal vowel collapse
…and here we go.
Nonpast
1SG *woktoy
1PL *woktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wokotwo
Past
1SG *woktiy
1PL *woktį > becomes *woktę because there is no Xį in Ba Sing Se
2 *wokt
3 *wokotw > *wokoto
5. Glides off into the distance
Right, so we have these *w and *y in the ultima that got there because of these verb endings. How do we get rid of them while leaving a tantalizing clue as to their presence?
Like this:
Nonpast
1SG *woktô
1PL *woktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wokôto
Past
1SG *woktî
1PL *woktę
2 *wokt
3 *wokoto
6. The Best or Worst Syncope Rule
Before long vowels, a short vowel dropped. (This appears to include nasal vowels, which appear to have been pronounced phonetically long.)
Nonpast
1SG *wktô
1PL *wktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wkôto
Past
1SG *wktî
1PL *wktę
2 *wokt
3 *wokoto
7. Length-be-gone
And then the phonemic length distinction was toast.
Nonpast
1SG *wkto
1PL *wktǫ
2 *wokto
3 *wkoto
Past
1SG *wkti
1PL *wktę
2 *wokt
3 *wokoto
This…
This…this is…
I love this.
This, theoretically, means the only "hash collisions" would occur in verbs with *i as a theme vowel (in the 1SG the past and nonpast are the same) or *e as a theme vowel (the past and nonpast of the 1PL are the same). We get by in English with "I cut it"…and probably a few other verbs I cannot identify offhand because I want to…I think they'll do.
So the citation form of the root could well just be the 1SG nonpast: √wkto.
- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
Dude, you guys have no idea how absolutely giddy that made me…like a mad scientist or something. It's alive, &c.
So now, I get to figure out how to make this utterly fail.
All right, so all this to say: So far we've got four basic stem forms: The base stem (B), the reduplicand (D), the *r-infixed (R), and the reduplicand of the *r-infixed (T). To illustrate (also, retcon: I said this was the verbnoun. It's the agent participle now, because I like that idea better).
√wkto – 'to irrigate'
B: wkto 'I irrigate' – wokta 'irrigator'
D: wokoyto 'something' – woktawokta 'something-er'
R: wokrto 'something else' – wokrta 'something else-er'
T: wokroyto 'sense a pattern?' – wokrotowokta 'senser of a pattern?'
So, generalized:
√C₁C₂C₃V
B: C₁C₂C₃V – C₁VC₂C₃a
D: C₁VC₂VyC₃V – C₁VC₂C₃aC₁VC₂C₃a
R: C₁VC₂rC₃V – C₁VC₂rC₃a
T: C₁VC₂rVyC₃V – C₁VC₂rVC₃VC₁VC₂C₃a
And with that, it's about to strike 2:30 AM here, and I am in dire need of sleep.
The below is for when I invariably have to quote this post to get at the formatted text:
So now, I get to figure out how to make this utterly fail.
More: show
√wkto – 'to irrigate'
B: wkto 'I irrigate' – wokta 'irrigator'
D: wokoyto 'something' – woktawokta 'something-er'
R: wokrto 'something else' – wokrta 'something else-er'
T: wokroyto 'sense a pattern?' – wokrotowokta 'senser of a pattern?'
So, generalized:
√C₁C₂C₃V
B: C₁C₂C₃V – C₁VC₂C₃a
D: C₁VC₂VyC₃V – C₁VC₂C₃aC₁VC₂C₃a
R: C₁VC₂rC₃V – C₁VC₂rC₃a
T: C₁VC₂rVyC₃V – C₁VC₂rVC₃VC₁VC₂C₃a
And with that, it's about to strike 2:30 AM here, and I am in dire need of sleep.
The below is for when I invariably have to quote this post to get at the formatted text:
More: show
Re: Twin Aster
Oh, I do! We’re conlangers too, remember! (I’ve been thinking of a somewhat similar system for my conlang Eŋes, actually.)Man in Space wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:29 am Dude, you guys have no idea how absolutely giddy that made me…like a mad scientist or something. It's alive, &c.
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
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Other: Ergativity for Novices
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- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
You know what, fair.bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:36 amOh, I do! We’re conlangers too, remember! (I’ve been thinking of a somewhat similar system for my conlang Eŋes, actually.)Man in Space wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:29 am Dude, you guys have no idea how absolutely giddy that made me…like a mad scientist or something. It's alive, &c.
Also, I wanted to hit this before I forgot. Root structure constraints.
OK. What you can't have:
- Two consecutive plosives of unlike voicing.
- Nasals immediately preceding prenasalized consonants.
- You can't have two of the same consonant in a row, with a very few exceptions, the most notable being √www 'weave'.
- ĝ (/ŋ/) can occur root-initially. In some of the daughters this was discouraged through various ways.
- y is almost entirely absent in roots. When it does occur it's typically in a loan or a neologism, and often wreaks havoc on the system.
Re: Twin Aster
It makes me happy to see how much work you do on this. Sleep well!
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
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- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
Thank you.
It is nice, to actually want to do things again.
Re: Twin Aster
This is gearreateagearta. Curious to find out what the three ‘something else’ grades do.
- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
Few things:
1. I have realized Bleffys Údd's situation was akin to that of a weeaboo assuming the imperial throne of Japan.
2. I think zompist wrote in one of his books about how…I want to say it was some faction of the Iroquois?…had this conceit where a man's sister's children inherit, basically because of the principle of "mama's baby, papa's maybe" and how it keeps things in the bloodline. I am trying to figure out how this works in practice with the Tim Ar.
3. I'm trying to write a basic reference grammar of CT for Fiat Lingua. What sorts of things should a good grammatical sketch include/would you like to see in such a sketch?
1. I have realized Bleffys Údd's situation was akin to that of a weeaboo assuming the imperial throne of Japan.
2. I think zompist wrote in one of his books about how…I want to say it was some faction of the Iroquois?…had this conceit where a man's sister's children inherit, basically because of the principle of "mama's baby, papa's maybe" and how it keeps things in the bloodline. I am trying to figure out how this works in practice with the Tim Ar.
3. I'm trying to write a basic reference grammar of CT for Fiat Lingua. What sorts of things should a good grammatical sketch include/would you like to see in such a sketch?
Re: Twin Aster
Before I remembered that acutes aren't used in Welsh my first thought was that "that guy sounds awfully Welsh to me" to my very non-Welsh brain.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
- Man in Space
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Re: Twin Aster
Nice alternations! And I like the font too, what is it?