Triscriptal alchemical German

Natural languages and linguistics
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vlad
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Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by vlad »

So it used to be common in western Europe to use two different scripts to represent different languages. Usually this was blackletter for Germanic languages and roman/antiqua for Latin or Romance languages. Here's an example from a grammar of Spanish:
Image
The modern equivalent of this is using italics to indicate foreign words, although italics is now thought of as just "slanted letters" rather than a distinct script.

Alchemists had a large collection of symbols that they used to represent elements (and various other things). Most descriptions I've seen of this just call them "symbols" in a vague way without showing how they're actually used. The reality is they're logograms, used to represent words in text, in a way very similar to how kanji are used in Japanese:
Image
Here <♁ij> represents antimonij, <🝭m> represents retortam, and <🝋erem> represents pulverem. (You probably don't have the fonts to render those last two, and if you do the glyphs probably aren't right.)

Now here's a German alchemical manuscript that combines both of these:
Image
German words are written in Kurrent, while Latin words are written in roman (not sure if that's the correct name), including both unassimilated Latin phrases like <Materiam primam> and loanwords like <☿rial-> (= Mercurial-). Logograms are used for both German words (<das ☉> = das Gold) and Latin words (<☿rium 🝞atum> = mercurium sublimatum, in the image below).
Image
There are also some words that combine all three scripts. In the second-last image in this post, the word Mercurial-Wasser is written with a logogram for Mercu-, roman for -rial-, and Kurrent for -Wasser. Similarly, at the bottom of the last image, the word sublimiren is written using a logogram for subli-, roman for -mir-, and Kurrent for -en.

I've never seen this kind of writing described before.
Ares Land
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by Ares Land »

vlad wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 1:09 am
I've never seen this kind of writing described before.
Ah, thanks! I didn't know about that and now I'm eager to steal this for a conlang.
Creyeditor
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by Creyeditor »

This lools so cool :o
bradrn
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by bradrn »

Fascinating find!
vlad wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 1:09 am German words are written in Kurrent, while Latin words are written in roman (not sure if that's the correct name)
Roman script is upright and unjoined. I’d call it a variant of italic script, I think.
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hwhatting
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by hwhatting »

Creyeditor wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:40 pm This lools so cool :o
Seconded.
Zju
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by Zju »

hwhatting wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 7:00 am
Creyeditor wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:40 pm This lools so cool :o
Seconded.
Thirded. Is there some sort of compilation or index of these manuscripts?
/j/ <j>

Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
vlad
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by vlad »

Zju wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 1:05 pm
hwhatting wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 7:00 am
Creyeditor wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:40 pm This lools so cool :o
Seconded.
Thirded. Is there some sort of compilation or index of these manuscripts?
There's bibliographies of alchemical texts but I don't think there's a list of ones that are specifically written like this.
vlad
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by vlad »

Here's another example of the same idea in print, with German in blackletter and Latin in antiqua:

Image
<☿🜄> = Mercurial-Wasser, <componiret>

Image
<philoſophiſche>, <antimonialiſchen>
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Glass Half Baked
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by Glass Half Baked »

What would make this better is if we could find one of these texts that also incorporates Tironian notes.
vlad
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by vlad »

Glass Half Baked wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:54 pm What would make this better is if we could find one of these texts that also incorporates Tironian notes.
The only Tironian note I've ever seen used anywhere is ⁊.
Travis B.
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by Travis B. »

vlad wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:28 pm
Glass Half Baked wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:54 pm What would make this better is if we could find one of these texts that also incorporates Tironian notes.
The only Tironian note I've ever seen used anywhere is ⁊.
Sure, it may be the only one in modern usage, and then pretty much just in Ireland and Scotland, but are we just considering documents written recently?
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
vlad
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by vlad »

Travis B. wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:37 pm
vlad wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:28 pm
Glass Half Baked wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:54 pm What would make this better is if we could find one of these texts that also incorporates Tironian notes.
The only Tironian note I've ever seen used anywhere is ⁊.
Sure, it may be the only one in modern usage, and then pretty much just in Ireland and Scotland, but are we just considering documents written recently?
It's the only one I've seen used in the past 500 years.
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Glass Half Baked
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by Glass Half Baked »

vlad wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:28 pm The only Tironian note I've ever seen used anywhere is ⁊.
Luckily, there is a solution to this problem here.
vlad
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by vlad »

Glass Half Baked wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 7:51 pm
vlad wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 6:28 pm The only Tironian note I've ever seen used anywhere is ⁊.
Luckily, there is a solution to this problem here.
Go do it then.
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dɮ the phoneme
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by dɮ the phoneme »

What texts are these examples from specifically?
Ye knowe eek that, in forme of speche is chaunge
With-inne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do.

(formerly Max1461)
vlad
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Re: Triscriptal alchemical German

Post by vlad »

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