This is usually true, although I can see a justification for it in languages like PIE where ablaut plays a major role.Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:59 pmI usually take posited "syllabic semivowels" to mean that the people doing the analysis are being too clever.Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:47 amI guess there's Nuxálk with allegedly just /a/ that doesn't display notable allophony (and syllabic /j w/). Maybe Arrernte too with /ɪ~ʊ a/ where /ɪ~ʊ/ variation is fairly unconditioned? And I'm tempted to say some stage of PIE (if at one point it had just */a aː/ or */æ ɒ/ or something)? I think with the syllabic semivowels it's reasonable enough.
Twin Aster
Re: Twin Aster
Re: Twin Aster
Thing is, a vowel system of, say, */i æ ɒ u/ or */i a aː u/ is much more sane than one of just */æ ɒ/ or */a aː/ (after all, real extremely small vowel inventories are typically vertical, e.g. /a ɨ/). I feel that sometimes the people doing analyses forget that what they are analyzing were real languages spoken by real people at one point, and not just figments of linguists' imaginations.Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:12 pmThis is usually true, although I can see a justification for it in languages like PIE where ablaut plays a major role.Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:59 pmI usually take posited "syllabic semivowels" to mean that the people doing the analysis are being too clever.Darren wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:47 am
I guess there's Nuxálk with allegedly just /a/ that doesn't display notable allophony (and syllabic /j w/). Maybe Arrernte too with /ɪ~ʊ a/ where /ɪ~ʊ/ variation is fairly unconditioned? And I'm tempted to say some stage of PIE (if at one point it had just */a aː/ or */æ ɒ/ or something)? I think with the syllabic semivowels it's reasonable enough.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka ha wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate ha eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Re: Twin Aster
Yeah I've got no argument with that. But it's also true that PIE */i u/ and */j w/ alternate in the same way that */m̩ n̩/ and */m n/ do, so there isn't really a good reason to say that */i u/ are vowels and */m̩ n̩/ aren't. It's equally as sane as claiming that say Ubykh has only two vowels /ə a/ when all of [i y ɨ u e ø ə o ɛ œ a ɔ] or whatever appear with high frequency. Sure, if you were writing a layman's grammar of PIE, you'd say it has the vowels */i u e o a/, but we do gain some understanding of the language from recognising that */i u/ (and */a/ for that matter) are not like the other vowels.Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:41 pm Thing is, a vowel system of, say, */i æ ɒ u/ or */i a aː u/ is much more sane than one of just */æ ɒ/ or */a aː/ (after all, real extremely small vowel inventories are typically vertical, e.g. /a ɨ/). I feel that sometimes the people doing analyses forget that what they are analyzing were real languages spoken by real people at one point, and not just figments of linguists' imaginations.
(sorry for the derailing of your thread Mr Space)
- Man in Space
- Posts: 1570
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:05 am
Re: Twin Aster
Verbal Mood in Tm
-Ø- INDICATIVE
-w- POTENTIAL CONDITIONAL
-y- INTERROGATIVE
-ə- OPTATIVE
-a- VERIDICAL CONDITIONAL
So for these morphemes, the potential conditional and interrogative are always word-final (even after the locative). The optative and veridical conditional affixes have some behavioral peculiarities:
- The vowel will precede a final -w -y following a nonvowel: /haspkj/ [ŋãspti] ngaspti 'cut(s)' ~ /haspk<ə>j/ [ŋãspkəj] ngaspkəy 'may cut' ~ /haspk<a>j/ ngaspnay 'would certainly cut'; /kjØwsw/ [tjuɹu] tyuru 'slather, wet, moisten, dampen, cover in fluid; paint, write' ~ /kjØws<ə>w/ [tjuɹəw] tyurəw 'may paint' ~ /kjØws<a>w/ [tjuɹãw] tyuraw 'would certainly write'.
- If the vowel in the final is the opposite of the morphemic vowel, it ablauts: /jaksa/ [jãksã] yaksa ~ /jaks<ə>/ [jãksə] yaksə; /skasap/ [ʃnãɹãm] snaram ~ /skas<ə>p/ [ʃnãɹəm] snasəm; /ajkə/ [ãjkə] aykə ~ /ajk<a>/ [ãjnã] ayna; /ssapəss/ [tsãpət] tsapət ~ /ssap<a>ss/ [tsãmãt] tsamat.
- If the vowel in the final is identical to the morphemic vowel, it instead becomes a preposed epenthetic /-h-/ ([-ŋ-] before /a/): /jaksa/ [jãksã] yaksa ~ /jaks<a>/ [jãksŋã] yaksnga; [ʃnãɹãm] snaram ~ /skas<a>p/ [ʃnãsŋãm] snasngam; /ajkə/ [ãjkə] aykə ~ /ajk<ə>/ [ãjkhə] aykhə; /ssapəss/ [tsãpət] tsapət ~ /ssap<ə>ss/ [tsãphət] tsaphət.
- In cases where an illegal cluster would form, it is generally realized as null.
/pjə kahak-Ø/ [pjə nãŋãn] 'he guts'
/pjə kahak-w/ [pjə nãŋãku] 'he might gut'
/pjə kahak-j/ [pjə nãŋãti] 'does he gut?'
/pjə kahak-ə/ [pjə nãŋãkə] 'may he gut'
/pjə kahak-a/ [pjə nãŋãnã] 'he would certainly gut'
/pjə haspkj-Ø/ [pjə ŋãspti] 'he cuts'
/pjə haspkj-w/ [pjə ŋãsptju] 'he might cut'
/pjə haspkj-j/ [pjə ŋãsptji] 'does he cut?'
/pjə haspk<ə>j/ [pjə ŋãspkəj] 'may he cut'
/pjə haspk<a>j/ [pjə ŋãspnãj] 'he would certainly cut'
/pjə haspkØi/
[pjə ŋãspti]
pyə ngaspti
/pjə haspk<a>j/
[pjə ŋãspnãj]
pyə ngaspnay
'(that) he would/will (certainly) cut'
Atyə ksəskyə?
/akjə ksəskjə/
[ãtjə ksəʃtjə]
'has the house begun to be built?' (the builders are relevant somehow)
Atyə ksastyə?
/akjə ksaskjə/
[ãtjə ksãʃtjə]
'has the house started being built?' (focus is on the house)
Nouns
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/idy9Uqp.png)
-Ø- INDICATIVE
-w- POTENTIAL CONDITIONAL
-y- INTERROGATIVE
-ə- OPTATIVE
-a- VERIDICAL CONDITIONAL
So for these morphemes, the potential conditional and interrogative are always word-final (even after the locative). The optative and veridical conditional affixes have some behavioral peculiarities:
- The vowel will precede a final -w -y following a nonvowel: /haspkj/ [ŋãspti] ngaspti 'cut(s)' ~ /haspk<ə>j/ [ŋãspkəj] ngaspkəy 'may cut' ~ /haspk<a>j/ ngaspnay 'would certainly cut'; /kjØwsw/ [tjuɹu] tyuru 'slather, wet, moisten, dampen, cover in fluid; paint, write' ~ /kjØws<ə>w/ [tjuɹəw] tyurəw 'may paint' ~ /kjØws<a>w/ [tjuɹãw] tyuraw 'would certainly write'.
- If the vowel in the final is the opposite of the morphemic vowel, it ablauts: /jaksa/ [jãksã] yaksa ~ /jaks<ə>/ [jãksə] yaksə; /skasap/ [ʃnãɹãm] snaram ~ /skas<ə>p/ [ʃnãɹəm] snasəm; /ajkə/ [ãjkə] aykə ~ /ajk<a>/ [ãjnã] ayna; /ssapəss/ [tsãpət] tsapət ~ /ssap<a>ss/ [tsãmãt] tsamat.
- If the vowel in the final is identical to the morphemic vowel, it instead becomes a preposed epenthetic /-h-/ ([-ŋ-] before /a/): /jaksa/ [jãksã] yaksa ~ /jaks<a>/ [jãksŋã] yaksnga; [ʃnãɹãm] snaram ~ /skas<a>p/ [ʃnãsŋãm] snasngam; /ajkə/ [ãjkə] aykə ~ /ajk<ə>/ [ãjkhə] aykhə; /ssapəss/ [tsãpət] tsapət ~ /ssap<ə>ss/ [tsãphət] tsaphət.
- In cases where an illegal cluster would form, it is generally realized as null.
/pjə kahak-Ø/ [pjə nãŋãn] 'he guts'
/pjə kahak-w/ [pjə nãŋãku] 'he might gut'
/pjə kahak-j/ [pjə nãŋãti] 'does he gut?'
/pjə kahak-ə/ [pjə nãŋãkə] 'may he gut'
/pjə kahak-a/ [pjə nãŋãnã] 'he would certainly gut'
/pjə haspkj-Ø/ [pjə ŋãspti] 'he cuts'
/pjə haspkj-w/ [pjə ŋãsptju] 'he might cut'
/pjə haspkj-j/ [pjə ŋãsptji] 'does he cut?'
/pjə haspk<ə>j/ [pjə ŋãspkəj] 'may he cut'
/pjə haspk<a>j/ [pjə ŋãspnãj] 'he would certainly cut'
/pjə haspkØi/
[pjə ŋãspti]
pyə ngaspti
/pjə haspk<a>j/
[pjə ŋãspnãj]
pyə ngaspnay
- pyə
- 3SG
- haspkØi
- cut
- <a>
- VC
'(that) he would/will (certainly) cut'
Atyə ksəskyə?
/akjə ksəskjə/
[ãtjə ksəʃtjə]
- atyə
- house
- k-
- INC
- s-
- PASS
- əskə
- build
- <j>
- INT
'has the house begun to be built?' (the builders are relevant somehow)
Atyə ksastyə?
/akjə ksaskjə/
[ãtjə ksãʃtjə]
- atyə
- house
- k-
- INC
- a-
- PSV
- əskə
- build
- <j>
- INT
'has the house started being built?' (focus is on the house)
Nouns
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/idy9Uqp.png)
Last edited by Man in Space on Sat Jul 06, 2024 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Twin Aster
Out of curiosity, precisely how does /haspkjw/ turn into [ŋãsptju]?
Conlangs: Scratchpad | Texts | antilanguage
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
Software: See http://bradrn.com/projects.html
Other: Ergativity for Novices
(Why does phpBB not let me add >5 links here?)
- Man in Space
- Posts: 1570
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:05 am
Re: Twin Aster
- /a/ [ã] obligatorily
- /h/ [ŋ] / _a (rhinoglottophilia)
- /k/ [t] / _j
- /w/ [u] / in nucleic position (/j/ [j] in this particular syllable shape)