Twin Aster

[Darren]

At minimum I’d expect something like /əj jə əw wə/ → [e e o o]. Come to think of it, I’m not sure there’s any two-vowel system where this doesn’t happen.

I guess there's Nuxálk with allegedly just /a/ that doesn't display notable allophony (and syllabic /j w/). Maybe Arrernte too with /ɪ~ʊ a/ where /ɪ~ʊ/ variation is fairly unconditioned? And I'm tempted to say some stage of PIE (if at one point it had just */a aː/ or */æ ɒ/ or something)? I think with the syllabic semivowels it's reasonable enough.

I usually take posited "syllabic semivowels" to mean that the people doing the analysis are being too clever.

This is usually true, although I can see a justification for it in languages like PIE where ablaut plays a major role.

[Travis B.]

I guess there's Nuxálk with allegedly just /a/ that doesn't display notable allophony (and syllabic /j w/). Maybe Arrernte too with /ɪ~ʊ a/ where /ɪ~ʊ/ variation is fairly unconditioned? And I'm tempted to say some stage of PIE (if at one point it had just */a aː/ or */æ ɒ/ or something)? I think with the syllabic semivowels it's reasonable enough.

I usually take posited "syllabic semivowels" to mean that the people doing the analysis are being too clever.

This is usually true, although I can see a justification for it in languages like PIE where ablaut plays a major role.

Thing is, a vowel system of, say, */i æ ɒ u/ or */i a aː u/ is much more sane than one of just */æ ɒ/ or */a aː/ (after all, real extremely small vowel inventories are typically vertical, e.g. /a ɨ/). I feel that sometimes the people doing analyses forget that what they are analyzing were real languages spoken by real people at one point, and not just figments of linguists' imaginations.

[Darren]

Thing is, a vowel system of, say, */i æ ɒ u/ or */i a aː u/ is much more sane than one of just */æ ɒ/ or */a aː/ (after all, real extremely small vowel inventories are typically vertical, e.g. /a ɨ/). I feel that sometimes the people doing analyses forget that what they are analyzing were real languages spoken by real people at one point, and not just figments of linguists' imaginations.

Yeah I've got no argument with that. But it's also true that PIE */i u/ and */j w/ alternate in the same way that */m̩ n̩/ and */m n/ do, so there isn't really a good reason to say that */i u/ are vowels and */m̩ n̩/ aren't. It's equally as sane as claiming that say Ubykh has only two vowels /ə a/ when all of [i y ɨ u e ø ə o ɛ œ a ɔ] or whatever appear with high frequency. Sure, if you were writing a layman's grammar of PIE, you'd say it has the vowels */i u e o a/, but we do gain some understanding of the language from recognising that */i u/ (and */a/ for that matter) are not like the other vowels.

(sorry for the derailing of your thread Mr Space)

[Man in Space]

Verbal Mood in Tm

-Ø- INDICATIVE
-w- POTENTIAL CONDITIONAL
-y- INTERROGATIVE
-ə- OPTATIVE
-a- VERIDICAL CONDITIONAL

So for these morphemes, the potential conditional and interrogative are always word-final (even after the locative). The optative and veridical conditional affixes have some behavioral peculiarities:

- The vowel will precede a final -w -y following a nonvowel: /haspkj/ [ŋãspti] ngaspti 'cut(s)' ~ /haspk<ə>j/ [ŋãspkəj] ngaspkəy 'may cut' ~ /haspk<a>j/ ngaspnay 'would certainly cut'; /kjØwsw/ [tjuɹu] tyuru 'slather, wet, moisten, dampen, cover in fluid; paint, write' ~ /kjØws<ə>w/ [tjuɹəw] tyurəw 'may paint' ~ /kjØws<a>w/ [tjuɹãw] tyuraw 'would certainly write'.
- If the vowel in the final is the opposite of the morphemic vowel, it ablauts: /jaksa/ [jãksã] yaksa ~ /jaks<ə>/ [jãksə] yaksə; /skasap/ [ʃnãɹãm] snaram ~ /skas<ə>p/ [ʃnãɹəm] snasəm; /ajkə/ [ãjkə] aykə ~ /ajk<a>/ [ãjnã] ayna; /ssapəss/ [^tsãpət] tsapət ~ /ssap<a>ss/ [^tsãmãt] tsamat.
- If the vowel in the final is identical to the morphemic vowel, it instead becomes a preposed epenthetic /-h-/ ([-ŋ-] before /a/): /jaksa/ [jãksã] yaksa ~ /jaks<a>/ [jãksŋã] yaksnga; [ʃnãɹãm] snaram ~ /skas<a>p/ [ʃnãsŋãm] snasngam; /ajkə/ [ãjkə] aykə ~ /ajk<ə>/ [ãjkhə] aykhə; /ssapəss/ [^tsãpət] tsapət ~ /ssap<ə>ss/ [^tsãphət] tsaphət.
- In cases where an illegal cluster would form, it is generally realized as null.

/pjə kahak-Ø/ [pjə nãŋãn] 'he guts'
/pjə kahak-w/ [pjə nãŋãku] 'he might gut'
/pjə kahak-j/ [pjə nãŋãti] 'does he gut?'
/pjə kahak-ə/ [pjə nãŋãkə] 'may he gut'
/pjə kahak-a/ [pjə nãŋãnã] 'he would certainly gut'

/pjə haspkj-Ø/ [pjə ŋãspti] 'he cuts'
/pjə haspkj-w/ [pjə ŋãsptju] 'he might cut'
/pjə haspkj-j/ [pjə ŋãsptji] 'does he cut?'
/pjə haspk<ə>j/ [pjə ŋãspkəj] 'may he cut'
/pjə haspk<a>j/ [pjə ŋãspnãj] 'he would certainly cut'

/pjə haspkØi/
[pjə ŋãspti]
pyə ngaspti

/pjə haspk<a>j/
[pjə ŋãspnãj]
pyə ngaspnay

pyə

3SG

haspkØi

cut

<a>

VC

'(that) he would/will (certainly) cut'

Atyə ksəskyə?
/akjə ksəskjə/
[ãtjə ksəʃtjə]

atyə

house

k-

INC

s-

PASS

əskə

build

<j>

INT

'has the house begun to be built?' (the builders are relevant somehow)

Atyə ksastyə?
/akjə ksaskjə/
[ãtjə ksãʃtjə]

atyə

house

k-

INC

a-

PSV

əskə

build

<j>

INT

'has the house started being built?' (focus is on the house)

Nouns

[bradrn]

Out of curiosity, precisely how does /haspkjw/ turn into [ŋãsptju]?

[Man in Space]

Out of curiosity, precisely how does /haspkjw/ turn into [ŋãsptju]?

- /a/ [ã] obligatorily
- /h/ [ŋ] / _a (rhinoglottophilia)
- /k/ [t] / _j
- /w/ [u] / in nucleic position (/j/ [j] in this particular syllable shape)