Sound Change Quickie Thread

[bradrn]

/l/-vocalization is common in English dialects, but what people seem to find notable about /l/-vocalization in Milwaukee dialect is that it occurs not just in codas but also intervocalically and even in onsets.

Ah, that’s interesting. Where does it happen in onsets?

[Travis B.]

In my own idiolect at least I only have lateral consonants in careful speech and when geminate (e.g. in thoroughly /ˈθərəlli/ [θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)] ─ yes, that's right, it has a geminate in it, as it is derived from thorough /ˈθərəl/ [ˈθʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯ(ː)], which in the dialect here ends in /l/).

(In dialect initial /θ/ is often [t̪], but I chose to transcribe it as [θ] as this is a rather common pronunciation.)

[Travis B.]

/l/-vocalization is common in English dialects, but what people seem to find notable about /l/-vocalization in Milwaukee dialect is that it occurs not just in codas but also intervocalically and even in onsets.

Ah, that’s interesting. Where does it happen in onsets?

Everywhere outside of word or stressed syllable-initially in careful speech or, in any register, in geminates.

[Travis B.]

(When I first noticed this I was like "is this some strange speech impediment on my part?" but then from listening around, everyone else from here seemed to do it too outside careful speech.)

[Travis B.]

(You are probably wondering how an /l/ got in thorough ─ my guess is that the final /o/ got unrounded partly due to being unstressed, and then got reanalyzed as /əl/ due to unstressed /o/ in words such as tomato and potato remaining as [o̞]; then in turn thoroughly changed by analogy so as to have /ll/ in it.)

[Darren]

[θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]

that is heinous

[Travis B.]

[θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]

that is heinous

As I mentioned, I commonly actually pronounce that [ˈt̪ʁ̩ˤʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)].

If it's the pharyngealized uvular rhotics, well... that's just normal for the dialect here ─ it may seem odd for an English variety, and it may be our own innovation here or it may be due to substratum influence from various German dialects.

If it's the [ɯ], that's just the normal realization of syllabic /l/ here (note that it is near-close not close).

If it's the pairing of long syllabic consonants/vocalized consonants followed by non-syllabic consonants, that is the normal realization of /əR/ before a vowel here.

If it's the [ʟ̞ː], yes, that one's a mouthful ─ I'm not sure how I normally manage to reliably pronounce it considering I normally vocalize all other instances of /l/ to death.

Of course, all this combines to make something that looks horrific when transcribed but which really is easier to pronounce than you'd think if you're used to it.

[Zju]

[θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]

that is heinous

As I mentioned, I commonly actually pronounce that [ˈt̪ʁ̩ˤʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)].

If it's the pharyngealized uvular rhotics, well... that's just normal for the dialect here ─ it may seem odd for an English variety, and it may be our own innovation here or it may be due to substratum influence from various German dialects.

If it's the [ɯ], that's just the normal realization of syllabic /l/ here (note that it is near-close not close).

If it's the pairing of long syllabic consonants/vocalized consonants followed by non-syllabic consonants, that is the normal realization of /əR/ before a vowel here.

If it's the [ʟ̞ː], yes, that one's a mouthful ─ I'm not sure how I normally manage to reliably pronounce it considering I normally vocalize all other instances of /l/ to death.

Of course, all this combines to make something that looks horrific when transcribed but which really is easier to pronounce than you'd think if you're used to it.

I keep getting more and more curious about your local dialect - is there some public broadcast from it or some local songs that exhibit all those [ʁˤ]s and [ʟ̞]?

[Travis B.]

I keep getting more and more curious about your local dialect - is there some public broadcast from it or some local songs that exhibit all those [ʁˤ]s and [ʟ̞]?

Not that I am aware of. For an example of my careful speech look at https://youtu.be/Zqr_hNf6tD4 - I am the guy with the headphones on and the really bright background. Forgive my frequent pauses. Note that this is not a good example of the local dialect in a number of ways.

[Travis B.]

(Examples of how this is not representative of the local dialect include that (pre)glottalization is weaker; e.g. I don't glottalize and even aspirate the /t/ in written.)

[Travis B.]

LOL at https://youtu.be/kk564tyKG64?si=zr_5ChQw9WXIgE-u ─ many of those pronunciations are completely foreign to me (but we do say [məːˈwɒki(ː)]*, and my dad at least, who is native to the Milwaukee area, does say [ˈʟ̞ɜːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]).

* People do also say [mɘːˈwɒki(ː)] or [mɪ̈ːˈwɒki(ː)], especially in more careful speech; this is the pronunciation you will probably hear from radio personalities here in the Milwaukee area.

(Oh and I have never once heard someone from here pronounce LOT as [æ].)

[Ahzoh]

my dad at least, who is native to the Milwaukee area, does say [ˈʟ̞ɜːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]).

English is a nightmare language. If you gave me this I would think it's Caucasian.

[Travis B.]

my dad at least, who is native to the Milwaukee area, does say [ˈʟ̞ɜːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]).

English is a nightmare language. If you gave me this I would think it's Caucasian.

And that's just /ˈlɛʒər/. In my case I have the more typical (at least phonemically) /ˈliʒər/ [ˈʟ̞iːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]~[ˈɰiːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)].

[bradrn]

Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)

[Darren]

Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)

Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?

[bradrn]

Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)

Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?

Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.

[Darren]

Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)

Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?

Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.

I feel that Australian /r/ is roughly [ɻᵓˤ ~ ɰ̟ᵓˤ]. Which on reflection is not a great deal better than Travis's [ʁˤ].

And that's just /ˈlɛʒər/. In my case I have the more typical (at least phonemically) /ˈliʒər/ [ˈʟ̞iːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]~[ˈɰiːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)].

Just for shits and giggles could you transcribe how you say "rural"?

[bradrn]

Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?

Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.

I feel that Australian /r/ is roughly [ɻᵓˤ ~ ɰ̟ᵓˤ]. Which on reflection is not a great deal better than Travis's [ʁˤ].

What’s superscript ⟨ᵓ⟩ supposed to mean?

[Darren]

Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.

I feel that Australian /r/ is roughly [ɻᵓˤ ~ ɰ̟ᵓˤ]. Which on reflection is not a great deal better than Travis's [ʁˤ].

What’s superscript ⟨ᵓ⟩ supposed to mean?

Ah, that's internal rounding.

[Travis B.]

Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

I have seen the "bunched /r/" described as palatal, though, and what I have certainly isn't palatal.

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)

It's essentially what happened to Polish except minus the rounding.