Sound Change Quickie Thread

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bradrn
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by bradrn »

Travis B. wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:39 pm /l/-vocalization is common in English dialects, but what people seem to find notable about /l/-vocalization in Milwaukee dialect is that it occurs not just in codas but also intervocalically and even in onsets.
Ah, that’s interesting. Where does it happen in onsets?
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Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

In my own idiolect at least I only have lateral consonants in careful speech and when geminate (e.g. in thoroughly /ˈθərəlli/ [θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)] ─ yes, that's right, it has a geminate in it, as it is derived from thorough /ˈθərəl/ [ˈθʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯ(ː)], which in the dialect here ends in /l/).

(In dialect initial /θ/ is often [t̪], but I chose to transcribe it as [θ] as this is a rather common pronunciation.)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

bradrn wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:47 pm
Travis B. wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:39 pm /l/-vocalization is common in English dialects, but what people seem to find notable about /l/-vocalization in Milwaukee dialect is that it occurs not just in codas but also intervocalically and even in onsets.
Ah, that’s interesting. Where does it happen in onsets?
Everywhere outside of word or stressed syllable-initially in careful speech or, in any register, in geminates.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

(When I first noticed this I was like "is this some strange speech impediment on my part?" but then from listening around, everyone else from here seemed to do it too outside careful speech.)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

(You are probably wondering how an /l/ got in thorough ─ my guess is that the final /o/ got unrounded partly due to being unstressed, and then got reanalyzed as /əl/ due to unstressed /o/ in words such as tomato and potato remaining as [o̞]; then in turn thoroughly changed by analogy so as to have /ll/ in it.)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Darren
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Darren »

Travis B. wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:50 pm [θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]
that is heinous
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Darren wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 11:53 pm
Travis B. wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:50 pm [θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]
that is heinous
As I mentioned, I commonly actually pronounce that [ˈt̪ʁ̩ˤʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]. :D

If it's the pharyngealized uvular rhotics, well... that's just normal for the dialect here ─ it may seem odd for an English variety, and it may be our own innovation here or it may be due to substratum influence from various German dialects.

If it's the [ɯ], that's just the normal realization of syllabic /l/ here (note that it is near-close not close).

If it's the pairing of long syllabic consonants/vocalized consonants followed by non-syllabic consonants, that is the normal realization of /əR/ before a vowel here.

If it's the [ʟ̞ː], yes, that one's a mouthful ─ I'm not sure how I normally manage to reliably pronounce it considering I normally vocalize all other instances of /l/ to death.

Of course, all this combines to make something that looks horrific when transcribed but which really is easier to pronounce than you'd think if you're used to it.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Zju
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Zju »

Travis B. wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 4:45 am
Darren wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 11:53 pm
Travis B. wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:50 pm [θʁ̩ˤːʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]
that is heinous
As I mentioned, I commonly actually pronounce that [ˈt̪ʁ̩ˤʁˤɯːʟ̞ːi(ː)]. :D

If it's the pharyngealized uvular rhotics, well... that's just normal for the dialect here ─ it may seem odd for an English variety, and it may be our own innovation here or it may be due to substratum influence from various German dialects.

If it's the [ɯ], that's just the normal realization of syllabic /l/ here (note that it is near-close not close).

If it's the pairing of long syllabic consonants/vocalized consonants followed by non-syllabic consonants, that is the normal realization of /əR/ before a vowel here.

If it's the [ʟ̞ː], yes, that one's a mouthful ─ I'm not sure how I normally manage to reliably pronounce it considering I normally vocalize all other instances of /l/ to death.

Of course, all this combines to make something that looks horrific when transcribed but which really is easier to pronounce than you'd think if you're used to it.
I keep getting more and more curious about your local dialect - is there some public broadcast from it or some local songs that exhibit all those [ʁˤ]s and [ʟ̞]?
/j/ <j>

Ɂaləɂahina asəkipaɂə ileku omkiroro salka.
Loɂ ɂerleku asəɂulŋusikraɂə seləɂahina əɂətlahɂun əiŋɂiɂŋa.
Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ. Hərlaɂ.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Zju wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:40 am I keep getting more and more curious about your local dialect - is there some public broadcast from it or some local songs that exhibit all those [ʁˤ]s and [ʟ̞]?
Not that I am aware of. For an example of my careful speech look at https://youtu.be/Zqr_hNf6tD4 - I am the guy with the headphones on and the really bright background. Forgive my frequent pauses. Note that this is not a good example of the local dialect in a number of ways.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

(Examples of how this is not representative of the local dialect include that (pre)glottalization is weaker; e.g. I don't glottalize and even aspirate the /t/ in written.)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

LOL at https://youtu.be/kk564tyKG64?si=zr_5ChQw9WXIgE-u ─ many of those pronunciations are completely foreign to me (but we do say [məːˈwɒki(ː)]*, and my dad at least, who is native to the Milwaukee area, does say [ˈʟ̞ɜːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]).

* People do also say [mɘːˈwɒki(ː)] or [mɪ̈ːˈwɒki(ː)], especially in more careful speech; this is the pronunciation you will probably hear from radio personalities here in the Milwaukee area.

(Oh and I have never once heard someone from here pronounce LOT as [æ].)
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
Ahzoh
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Ahzoh »

Travis B. wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 1:43 pm my dad at least, who is native to the Milwaukee area, does say [ˈʟ̞ɜːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]).
English is a nightmare language. If you gave me this I would think it's Caucasian.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Ahzoh wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 5:19 pm
Travis B. wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 1:43 pm my dad at least, who is native to the Milwaukee area, does say [ˈʟ̞ɜːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]).
English is a nightmare language. If you gave me this I would think it's Caucasian.
And that's just /ˈlɛʒər/. In my case I have the more typical (at least phonemically) /ˈliʒər/ [ˈʟ̞iːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]~[ˈɰiːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)].
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
bradrn
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by bradrn »

Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)
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Darren
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:42 pm Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)
Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?
bradrn
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by bradrn »

Darren wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:54 pm
bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:42 pm Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)
Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?
Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.
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Darren
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:06 pm
Darren wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:54 pm
bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:42 pm Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].

(What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)
Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?
Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.
I feel that Australian /r/ is roughly [ɻᵓˤ ~ ɰ̟ᵓˤ]. Which on reflection is not a great deal better than Travis's [ʁˤ].

Travis B. wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:00 pm And that's just /ˈlɛʒər/. In my case I have the more typical (at least phonemically) /ˈliʒər/ [ˈʟ̞iːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)]~[ˈɰiːʑʁ̩ˤ(ː)].
Just for shits and giggles could you transcribe how you say "rural"?
bradrn
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by bradrn »

Darren wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:28 pm
bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:06 pm
Darren wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:54 pm

Do you really have no tongue involvement at all in /r/?
Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.
I feel that Australian /r/ is roughly [ɻᵓˤ ~ ɰ̟ᵓˤ]. Which on reflection is not a great deal better than Travis's [ʁˤ].
What’s superscript ⟨ᵓ⟩ supposed to mean?
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Darren
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Darren »

bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:32 pm
Darren wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:28 pm
bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:06 pm

Well, [ʕ] does use the back of the tongue. But I’ve never been quite sure precisely what my /r/ is.
I feel that Australian /r/ is roughly [ɻᵓˤ ~ ɰ̟ᵓˤ]. Which on reflection is not a great deal better than Travis's [ʁˤ].
What’s superscript ⟨ᵓ⟩ supposed to mean?
Ah, that's internal rounding.
Travis B.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Travis B. »

bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:42 pm Re [ʁ̩ˤ] — isn’t this just the famous American ‘bunched /r/’? It’s not too far off from my own [ʕʷ].
I have seen the "bunched /r/" described as palatal, though, and what I have certainly isn't palatal.
bradrn wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:42 pm (What happens to /l/ is genuinely weird, though.)
It's essentially what happened to Polish except minus the rounding.
Yaaludinuya siima d'at yiseka wohadetafa gaare.
Ennadinut'a gaare d'ate eetatadi siiman.
T'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa t'awraa.
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