United States Politics Thread 46

[Ahzoh]

With the right to vote comes the responsibility of being an informed voter, and you have a substantial portion of the the population that actively and enthusiastically snubs that responsibility.

[Ahzoh]

You seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them while the Republicans constantly shit on anything left of, well, far-right with impunity.

Yeah, it's a ridiculous double standard

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it seems like there's people in this thread/forum that seem ok with the possibility of fascism, they certainly seem unconcerned over Project 2025 and the implications of another Donald Trump presidency.

[Man in Space]

You seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them while the Republicans constantly shit on anything left of, well, far-right with impunity.

The idea cuts both (well, all) ways.

[Man in Space]

it seems like there's people in this thread/forum that seem ok with the possibility of fascism, they certainly seem unconcerned over Project 2025 and the implications of another Donald Trump presidency.

If this is in reference to me, I do not support Trump and am not a Republican (though neither am I a Democrat). The spectre of another Trump presidency makes me greatly apprehensive and I am all too aware of Project 2025 (and the prospect of JD Vance assuming office; he’s from my state). That does not mean, however, I cannot or will not comment on how we got here.

[keenir]

It doesn't help that a lot of Democrats are likely the ones who voted for various 3rd Party canidates...such as from Federal Party, Justice For All Party, Green Party, etc...

...while I suspect the MAGA voted for Trump no matter who else was running.

That would've been the one good thing about RFK Jr running: he'd have split the MAGA vote as surely as the Bull Moose Party did for its own founders.

[keenir]

Giving everyone a vote means letting the poorly-educated vote. It always seemed odd to me that the same people who lionize democracy openly insult those without education. Like, the poorly-educated are going to have a vote, and instead of reaching out to them, you (the general “you”, not you specifically) just demonize them. Small wonder they vote for the party that doesn’t practice open intellectual snobbery and bullying against them. (I still remember 2016, when Clinton called half the country a “basket of deplorable”, while Trump said “I love the poorly-educated”.)

Is it "open intellectual snobbery and bullying" to expect people to be just slightly informed (e.g. occasionally opening Google News and reading about politics or even just turning on any TV channel other than Fox News every so often), to be angry when they either patently ignore everything that comes directly out of their chosen candidate's own mouth right in the very open, in the kind of media that they themselves are likely to follow (i.e. they are ignorant) or actively agree with it and think it is good (i.e. they are evil)?

If one party constantly bangs their drum to shit on you for your (lack of) education, would you care what the other does so long as they embraced you? EDIT: Put another way—if one party makes it clear they despise you, why would you be inclined to vote for them?

because the other party also makes it clear they despise us - Trump doesn't even couch it in anything resembling polite language.

[jcb]

Umm it was very obvious what the Republicans stood/stand for and what they were planning to do (the Republicans did nothing to hide it), so anyone who could vote and didn't vote for Harris frankly was/is necessarily either stupid/ignorant (i.e. they didn't realize what Trump was/is for and was/is planning to do or were somehow deluded into thinking it was a good thing) or evil (i.e. they knew full well what Trump intended and how bad it would be and supported it because of that). And you are just making excuses for them with statements like that.

So how exactly do you expect Democrats to ever win again if you reject the idea of trying to change the mind of anybody who didn't already vote for the Democrats?

If one party constantly bangs their drum to shit on you for your (lack of) education, would you care what the other does so long as they embraced you? EDIT: Put another way—if one party makes it clear they despise you, why would you be inclined to vote for them?

You seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them

You think uneducated/poor people are the Republican base? This is how we get shit like the Chuck Schumer plan.

A quote from Zompist's "The Last Century" page ( https://www.zompist.com/predic.htm ) comes to mind:

Ally with other institutions. Liberals tend to be too happy with their influence on government, the academy, and the media. They tend to forget (or are actively hostile toward) the church, the military, business, the family. All of these can be allies for progressive causes.

I also think the staff is broken over Ukraine now - within a year, Zelensky will be either dead, in gulag, or in exile. Things haven't been kind to him and all freedom-loving Ukrainians, ans without support from the USA, things will get very bad. So Trump will end the war in Ukraine - but in an unacceptable way.

RIP Ukraine and RIP Taiwan. Trump, in his characteristic narcissistic and lazy way, doesn't understand that China cares far more about Taiwan than they care about some tariffs, and that China probably already expects a full trade embargo if/when they invade Taiwan anyways. ( https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-say ... 024-10-18/ )

Also, the Democrats didn't even win the presidential popular vote this time.

[Travis B.]

Umm it was very obvious what the Republicans stood/stand for and what they were planning to do (the Republicans did nothing to hide it), so anyone who could vote and didn't vote for Harris frankly was/is necessarily either stupid/ignorant (i.e. they didn't realize what Trump was/is for and was/is planning to do or were somehow deluded into thinking it was a good thing) or evil (i.e. they knew full well what Trump intended and how bad it would be and supported it because of that). And you are just making excuses for them with statements like that.

So how exactly do you expect Democrats to ever win again if you reject the idea of trying to change the mind of anybody who didn't already vote for the Democrats?

By when midterms come (provided America still has free and fair elections then) people seeing how much of a clusterfuck Trump's policies really are, and considering their past votes for him having been a poor choice?

If one party constantly bangs their drum to shit on you for your (lack of) education, would you care what the other does so long as they embraced you? EDIT: Put another way—if one party makes it clear they despise you, why would you be inclined to vote for them?

You seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them

You think uneducated/poor people are the Republican base? This is how we get shit like the Chuck Schumer plan.

As I said, the Republicans constantly shit on everyone slightly to their left but get all hypersensitive about the least criticism from their left. And I was not just criticizing poorly educated supporters of the Republicans, I was also criticizing educated supporters of the Republicans (i.e. the evil ones, as these are people who really know what the Republicans are for and support them anyways) too, lest you forget that.

[bradrn]

I found this series of slides illuminating.

The article it links to is excellent, thanks.

shocking that calling people stupid and ignorant didn't win them over to your side

When people act in a way that might well end up significantly shortening my life, I don't see why I should be nice and respectful towards them.

Also, regarding this: I think there’s one good reason to be respectful, namely because that would make it easier to have a discussion with them and possibly change their opinions. As justified as impoliteness may be, it doesn’t help to change their opinions.

[Ahzoh]

There's so many people on social media that don't take the Project 2025 document seriously.

Also, regarding this: I think there’s one good reason to be respectful, namely because that would make it easier to have a discussion with them and possibly change their opinions. As justified as impoliteness may be, it doesn’t help to change their opinions.

The liberal obsession with civility politics

Civility only works when both parties are acting in good faith, but most of these people are bad faith actors and they certainly don't care to be civil themselves. Besides, many of them stubbornly don't want to be convinced.

[jcb]

By when midterms come (provided America still has free and fair elections then) people seeing how much of a clusterfuck Trump's policies really are, and considering their past votes for him having been a poor choice?

So you're just okay with constantly losing half the time to fascists? got it. As you implied, how long will free and fair elections even still exist if fascists are in power half the time? You seem to understand the stakes, so I don't understand your reluctance to change anything.

[rotting bones]

There used to be a streamer called Destiny who has been debating the alt right since before 2016. He was very gentle at first. He even avoided woke language and tried to make friends with communities of alt right hosts. By now, he's totally blackpilled. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. The American right has completely different standards for what someone like Trump can do vs. everyone else. You can gently show them the error of their ways (Trump is a city slicker who fucks over rural Americans all the time by withholding aid), and they will go, "Yes, but what about...?" Meanwhile, Trump can constantly contradict himself and take credit for everything good, and they will think it's brave of him to voice uncomfortable truths. You can be 100% accurate about everything, but people just won't listen when they don't trust you.

These days, Destiny is a nervous wreck. He says the only way to make Republican voters stop is to make them feel the consequences of their actions: Democrats should cut off funding to red districts and let them fend for themselves. The only language they understand is that voting red will negatively affect their own lives. His own mother is a Republican.

(Naturally, I disagree, to put it mildly. I support political violence, but only in self-defense. I think marginalized communities should organize to resist Project 2025. But terror definitely should not be weaponized by the state.)

The only long term solution is to build up universal progressive institutions. Since people want progressive policies but distrust progressives, political appointees should be replaced by the popular vote. Just remove the candidates. Whatever "efficiency" you imagine comes from representation is non-existent if the people only trust fascists!

In the short term, note that Trump got the same number of votes as last time. It's the Democrats who were demotivated. The lesson is for the candidate to have strong populist convictions, stand up for them, and go on about them enthusiastically for hours. Centrism motivates no one when the system isn't working! It doesn't matter whether the policies are good or bad, sensible or nonsensical. In fact, the more cartoonish, the better! I don't understand why Democrats insist on praising an economy where 60% are living paycheck to paycheck: https://www.youtube.com/live/naVnsgeVHYg Meanwhile, the Republicans are talking about effectively allocating a budget of ~100k to deport each migrant. I've never laid eyes on 100k in my life. If they just gave me that money, it would improve my life immeasurably. But no, it's the principle of the thing!

I think the 2028 Democratic candidate should be (no joke!) a pro wrestler who constantly belittles Trump as a loser and taunts him to enter the ring if he dares. Look, when you live in an idiocracy, you make the best of it. A quick Google suggests that Hangman Adam Page supports Medicare For All. Whoever that is, his country needs him. (No shade. I've never watched wrestling.)

The fact is, lots of people voted for Trump because of Joe Rogan. There is no reliable strategy for creating an alternative to Joe Rogan with the same reach within 4 years, so this is the next best thing I can think of.

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So, will any Palestinians survive this? I suppose Bangladesh's attempts at reform are derailed now.

I hope Torco is right about a Trump presidency weakening the American empire. I'm worried that a majority of humans worldwide simply enjoy lies, oppression and being Epstein's best friend, so the empire will get stronger.

At the very least, I hope some cheap food remains edible despite the Chevron ruling and Trump's indifference.

[rotting bones]

This is a problem with overly focusing on the economy. You may get a self-proclaimed greedy person (along with his other faults of course). Morality should trump the economy.

PS also overly focusing on immigration/people moving house across countries. It just plays into the xenophobes' hands.

No one is telling people to care about the economy. They just do. If they didn't, nature would select against their survival.

And if you tell them to care about morality, they will take it as carte blanche to commit genocide. Humanity doesn't agree with your idea of what it means to be moral. So much so that the economy is pretty much the only thing that could motivate people to support the left.

[Ahzoh]

More people need to realize the banality of evil. The dystopia will not be cool, sleek, and hip. It'll be boring, grey and you won't even notice its creep.

[rotting bones]

More people need to realize the banality of evil. The dystopia will not be cool, sleek, and hip. It'll be boring, grey and you won't even notice its creep.

They will be listening to Trump, who will be blaming the Democrats.

[rotting bones]

Because inflation had moved more and more people into the higher brackets of progressive taxation.

It doesn't have to include them. They could make the case to be excluded.

[rotting bones]

great...what about the family or the individual? or is everyone defined by their commons/community membership?

If a family business becomes a megacorp, it will be "taxed" until it's a family business again.

(and isn't that exactly the conditions you said you were escaping from in your own commons? certainly sounds like it, at least)

How so?

[jcb]

You can be 100% accurate about everything, but people just won't listen when they don't trust you.

And why don't people trust liberals? The deterioration of unions and abandonment of working people in general probably has something to do with it.

I think the 2028 Democratic candidate should be (no joke!) a pro wrestler who constantly belittles Trump as a loser and taunts him to enter the ring if he dares.

Such a man already exists: Jesse Ventura.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVPxCnU_aW4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUJv6BbpauQ

Jesse Ventura is an American politician, actor, and retired professional wrestler.

He ran a third party campaign for governor of Minnesota in 1998 and won.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Minn ... l_election

I hope Torco is right about a Trump presidency weakening the American empire.

Is Ukraine going to be better off under Russia? Is Taiwan going to be better off under China?

[rotting bones]

So, one of the most unfortunate countries in the world, brutalized by exploitation and dictatorship. And they still achieved 51% cell phone ownership. That's a rare bit of good news for the country, and indicative of the way that cell phones are transforming the developing world.

I only intended to say that you need a phone to work in the mainstream world economy. My anecdote was meant to point out the difference between essential and inessential purchases.

[rotting bones]

And why don't people trust liberals? The deterioration of unions and abandonment of working people in general probably has something to do with it.

It's not even a passive abandonment. When Obama came to power, the Democratic party strategized to dissolve the grassroots organizations that campaigned for him to appease the corporate Democrats. They could have chosen to retain it, and the Democrats would have had an answer to the MAGA movement today. But leftist populism isn't profitable, you see.

Such a man already exists: Jesse Ventura.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVPxCnU_aW4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUJv6BbpauQ

Jesse Ventura is an American politician, actor, and retired professional wrestler.

He ran a third party campaign for governor of Minnesota in 1998 and won.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Minn ... l_election

I'll have to look into this.

Is Ukraine going to be better off under Russia? Is Taiwan going to be better off under China?

Why don't you ask Trump voters? I can't help these countries. I can only take what I'm given and think of the best next step. If we do get a multipolar world, it could be easier to undermine each oppressive regime.