Linguistic Miscellany Thread

[bradrn]

Supposedly labiodental affricates are "rare", and I have never seen them in an IPA chart, yet I am very familiar with them in English in words like obvious and adventure. (In both of those words for me there is neither bilabial nor coronal articulation in the bolded consonants.) From looking at the wiki it says that "some speakers" have them in obvious, but to me pronouncing obvious with an actual [b] feels like very unnatural, overly-careful pronunciation. Does anyone else consistently have them in historical /bv/ or both /bv/ and /dv/ clusters in English when they don't reduce those clusters to just [v] or [vː] in the first place?

I think the idea is that phonemic labiodental affricates are very rare, but phonetic ones resulting from /b/+/v/ or /p/+/f/ are as common as any assimilatory process.

[Glass Half Baked]

Same story with labiodental nasals.

[vlad]

Supposedly labiodental affricates are "rare", and I have never seen them in an IPA chart, yet I am very familiar with them in English in words like obvious and adventure. (In both of those words for me there is neither bilabial nor coronal articulation in the bolded consonants.) From looking at the wiki it says that "some speakers" have them in obvious, but to me pronouncing obvious with an actual [b] feels like very unnatural, overly-careful pronunciation. Does anyone else consistently have them in historical /bv/ or both /bv/ and /dv/ clusters in English when they don't reduce those clusters to just [v] or [vː] in the first place?

I have [bv] (with a bilabial stop) in obvious, and [d͡b̪v] (with a coarticulated labiodental-alveolar stop) in adventure.

Actually, looking at it closer I think I have [b͡b̪v] in obvious (with the lower lip touching both the upper lip and the upper teeth). But the difference is pretty subtle.

In any case, there's clearly a distinction between /bv/ and /dv/, and neither of them are solely labiodental.

[jal]

For a labiodental affricate, you need a labiodental plosive, and I have a hard time imagining how you can get a plosive, let alone a phonetically distinctive plosive (i.e. as opposed to a bilabial plosive) labiodentally (as you air will always leak through the teeth).


JAL

[Travis B.]

For a labiodental affricate, you need a labiodental plosive, and I have a hard time imagining how you can get a plosive, let alone a phonetically distinctive plosive (i.e. as opposed to a bilabial plosive) labiodentally (as you air will always leak through the teeth).

A labiodental plosive is really no different from a dental plosive except it is articulated with the lower lip rather than the tongue. In my historical /bv/ and /dv/ the lower lip comes into full contact with the upper teeth without frication, followed by a fricative release. They are distinct from plain /v/ because there is not continuous frication.

(Edit: I should also clarify that in my /bv/ and /dv/ the lower lip is inside the upper teeth rather than outside.)

[Darren]

(Edit: I should also clarify that in my /bv/ and /dv/ the lower lip is inside the upper teeth rather than outside.)

That's interesting, to me that feels like a lot of articulatory effort to get the lower lip round that far.

[Travis B.]

(Edit: I should also clarify that in my /bv/ and /dv/ the lower lip is inside the upper teeth rather than outside.)

That's interesting, to me that feels like a lot of articulatory effort to get the lower lip round that far.

I mean the upper teeth come into contact with the outer edge of the top of the lower lip (just like how I articulate [f] and [v]), not that the lower lip is actually fully inside the upper teeth (which feels very unnatural to me).

[Darren]

(Edit: I should also clarify that in my /bv/ and /dv/ the lower lip is inside the upper teeth rather than outside.)

That's interesting, to me that feels like a lot of articulatory effort to get the lower lip round that far.

I mean the upper teeth come into contact with the outer edge of the top of the lower lip (just like how I articulate [f] and [v]), not that the lower lip is actually fully inside the upper teeth (which feels very unnatural to me).

Either way feels unnatural. For me /f v/ are with the upper teeth contacting the back of the lower lip. Just kinda on the corner of where it goes from inside-mouth-material to lip-material.

[bradrn]

That's interesting, to me that feels like a lot of articulatory effort to get the lower lip round that far.

I mean the upper teeth come into contact with the outer edge of the top of the lower lip (just like how I articulate [f] and [v]), not that the lower lip is actually fully inside the upper teeth (which feels very unnatural to me).

Either way feels unnatural. For me /f v/ are with the upper teeth contacting the back of the lower lip. Just kinda on the corner of where it goes from inside-mouth-material to lip-material.

That’s basically how I pronounce my labiodentals too. (In fact, my lip may be slightly more forward than even that.)

[jal]

A labiodental plosive is really no different from a dental plosive except it is articulated with the lower lip rather than the tongue.

With a dental plosive there's full closure of the airways, because the tongue blocks any gap in the teeth. With labiodentals, the teeth are on top of the lower lip, and any gaps between the teeth are still open. That's no problem for fricatives and approximants, but for plosives this doesn't work.

With /bv/, the lower lip might be slightly retracted compared to plain /b/, but it stil firmly touches the upper lip, creating the closure. With /dv/ I don't see a change of position of the lower lip, as the lip isn't involved in pronouncing /d/.

I should also clarify that in my /bv/ and /dv/ the lower lip is inside the upper teeth rather than outside

That seems extreme. It may be slightly retracted, but you must've very thin lips to be able to retract it quickly to behind the front teeth.


JAL

[Travis B.]

A labiodental plosive is really no different from a dental plosive except it is articulated with the lower lip rather than the tongue.

With a dental plosive there's full closure of the airways, because the tongue blocks any gap in the teeth. With labiodentals, the teeth are on top of the lower lip, and any gaps between the teeth are still open. That's no problem for fricatives and approximants, but for plosives this doesn't work.

I need to deliberately pressurize my mouth to defeat the stoppage in /bv/ and force frication between my teeth; while the stoppage may not be perfect normally, there is still a stoppage of air.

With /bv/, the lower lip might be slightly retracted compared to plain /b/, but it stil firmly touches the upper lip, creating the closure. With /dv/ I don't see a change of position of the lower lip, as the lip isn't involved in pronouncing /d/.

/d/ readily assimilates to following consonants (or even vowels in the case of /i u/!) in the English here, producing geminates or, in this case, an affricate. Consider words such as vodka [ˈvaːkːə(ː)] and video [ˈvɪ̈ːjːo̞(ː)(w)].

I should also clarify that in my /bv/ and /dv/ the lower lip is inside the upper teeth rather than outside

That seems extreme. It may be slightly retracted, but you must've very thin lips to be able to retract it quickly to behind the front teeth.

My lower lip is in a distinctly different position with [b] on one hand and [v] and [b̪v] on the other. When I try to pronounce /bv/ with a real [b] I find myself either pulling back my lower lip between it and [v], which feels unnatural, or pronouncing something that is almost [bβ] where the [v] is articulated between the back of my lower lip and my front teeth, which feels, well, careful.

[anteallach]

Ladefoged and Maddieson do give examples of languages which have been reported to have labiodental plosives and also mention Tsonga with its labiodental affricates, but they do hint (in their discussion of Shubi) that some speakers' teeth make a true labiodental plosive impossible or at least difficult to make, which would explain why they are very rare, and they suggest that many speakers use a bilabial-labiodental affricate (like Standard German /pf/) instead.

As for English /bv/, I think what I have is a bilabial stop released into a labiodental fricative, a little like the German sound. The lips are quite pursed, meaning that the teeth meet the inside of the lower lip. Something similar happens as a realisation of /f/ in some /mf/ clusters, e.g. in emphasis, and in my attempts at pronouncing the German sound, though I don't think I usually purse my lips as much for that. I can make a labiodental plosive if I want to, but I don't think I do in normal speech.

Meanwhile /dv/ has an actual [d], at least when I'm listening to myself.

[Travis B.]

My [ɱf] in emphasis is different from my [b̪v] in obvious because while my bottom lip touches my upper teeth, it is outside them; my [ɱ] is much closer to a regular [m] than my [b̪] is to a regular [b].

[jal]

My [ɱf] in emphasis is different from my [b̪v] in obvious because while my bottom lip touches my upper teeth, it is outside them; my [ɱ] is much closer to a regular [m] than my [b̪] is to a regular [b].

Amazing. Wonder how many people would have this.


JAL

[Travis B.]

I suspect my [b̪v] in obvious and adventure can actually be synchronically analyzed as /vv/, with gemination causing light affrication. This is consistent with how the normal resolution of historical /dC/ clusters is to form [Cː] geminates in everyday speech here. This is also consistent with how I articulate it differently from /mf/, where /m/ is clearly retained as a separate phoneme (and where I don't intuitively perceive any obvious difference between it and my regular [m] except when I pay close attention to how I am articulating it). In addition, this is consistent with how I can substitute it with [vː] and not perceive it as "wrong"; the only thing is I find it hard to maintain continuous frication in a geminate at a labiodental POA.

[Travis B.]

I should note that I find it hard to articulate StG initial /pf/, and the normal way it is loaned into the English here is as /f/ (as in northern German regiolects). For instance, there is a famous hotel in downtown Milwaukee named the Pfister, and everyone here pronounces it with [f].

I should also note that the word hopefully is commonly pronounced with [p̪f] in everyday speech here, but in higher registers [pf] is retained.

[WeepingElf]

As usual in such matters, one has to distinguish between phonetics and phonology, otherwise we talk past each other here. Phonologically, yes, German has a labiodental affricate. But phonetically, it is a bilabial stop followed by a labiodental fricative. (Also, but that's merely a tangent, this phoneme is on its way out, with teachers fighting an uphill battle saying things like Es heißt Pferd und nicht Ferd!)

[Travis B.]

(Also, but that's merely a tangent, this phoneme is on its way out, with teachers fighting an uphill battle saying things like Es heißt Pferd und nicht Ferd!)

Is it on its way out in all positions, or only initially? For instance, do people merge /pf/ with /f/ in Apfel or Kopf?

[Raphael]

(Also, but that's merely a tangent, this phoneme is on its way out, with teachers fighting an uphill battle saying things like Es heißt Pferd und nicht Ferd!)

As everyone knows, das Pferd heißt Pferd weil es fährt!

Is it on its way out in all positions, or only initially? For instance, do people merge /pf/ with /f/ in Apfel or Kopf?

Only initially.

[WeepingElf]

(Also, but that's merely a tangent, this phoneme is on its way out, with teachers fighting an uphill battle saying things like Es heißt Pferd und nicht Ferd!)

As everyone knows, das Pferd heißt Pferd weil es fährt!

Is it on its way out in all positions, or only initially? For instance, do people merge /pf/ with /f/ in Apfel or Kopf?

Only initially.

In medial and final position it is more stable, but there is some tendency to simplify it to /p/ there, i.e. some people say Appel and Kopp. Of the German dialects, West Central German (and of course Low German) never had /pf/ and thus has /p/ throughout, while East Central German once had it, but now has /f/ in initial and /p/ in other positions. AFAIK, Yiddish is like that, too. Upper German has /pf/ in all positions.