2024 Translation Relay

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

... but I can’t see where ‘final breath’ comes from ...

I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd.
I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd.
I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd.
I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd. I will not be an undertale nerd.

screw it

More: show

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er er er

I sincerely apologize for any repercussions this may have.

edit: yes, I copy-pasted off of emojicombos.com.

edit edit: nevermind, the link doesn't work.

[bradrn]

Eh? What?

[/ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/]

Eh? What?

I'm probably not gonna go hyperfixation mode on yall, but search "undertale last breath" on youtube if you're still curious. I found it funny because I just got done watching a video on it when I saw you write 'final breath'.

anyways, random nerd out over. continue 2024 translation relay.

[Zju]

Can we add a rule that if a conlang doesn't contain some words of the torch, they should be coined instead of substituted with synonyms? This seems to be a major reason of the increasing confusion.

And a rule that the provided lexicon and grammar should be mostly about the torch, and not contain a bunch of other stuff that is 80% unnecessary for the purposes of translating the torch.

...but oh whew, I was lowkey worried Lùlàjnòj would be a tough nut to translate. Luckily, it wasn't half as bad.

Here's my translation notes, or what I could find of them anyway:

More: show

No mov, domentre s’ieva la crida de Coa Blanca, e Ala Nera sent l’alento finál li lax lo corpo. La senta que yet mout cobréd lo consola, alliberánt la senta etrecha en lo pech. Alentánt profónd, Ala Nera prepara las pates. Ab las plumes vae de lo nio. Corto se gira por ver lo corpo de gris de arllád, que Coa Blanca lo necesitará nunca mais. Susurra que, segueró vent. Se gira por laxár que las allengenes passan. En las ombres, sent que lores peles ecoban lo, e uej una ronronnya deisde cabeza se plegád. Mais lonj en las ombres, paredes aperes muotran l’orisónt, e las ombres se cedan. A lonj, lo sol grand manda aralles de luz lumbrosa de caos, que caen en cascada por sovre de la tera. Diz que, lonj sui etád viachád, por porseguér lo camín de lo sol a ita tera de la cacha.


No mov, domentre s’ieva la crida de Coa Blanca, e Ala Nera sent l’alento finál li lax lo corpo.

It doesn't move, for as long as the cry of White Tail fades and Black Ala feels the final breath leaves his body.


La senta que yet mout cobréd lo consola, alliberánt la senta etrecha en lo pech.

The feeling which is very hidden comforts him, healing the tight feeling in his chest.


Alentánt profónd, Ala Nera prepara las pates. Ab las plumes vae de lo nio.

Breathing deeply, Black Ala prepares the paws. With its feathers it goes from the nest.

Corto se gira por ver lo corpo de gris de arllád, que Coa Blanca lo necesitará nunca mais.

It briefly turns(?) to see the striped gray body, which White Tail won't need anymore.


Susurra que, segueró vent. Se gira por laxár que las allengenes passan.
?? that, I will continue wind. It turns(?) to leave ?????? ???????



In the shadows it feels that their hairs brush it and a purr sounds out of a tilted head. Further in the shadows, coarse walls point out the horizon and the shadows recede. In the distance the sun sends streams of luminous chaotic light, which fall in a waterfall along the top of the land. It's said that I've been a traveller for long, to follow the path of the sun to this land of the hunt.


En las ombres, sent que lores peles ecoban lo, e uej una ronronnya deisde cabeza se plegád.

In the shadows it feels that their hairs brush it and a purr sounds out of a tilted head.

Mais lonj en las ombres, paredes aperes muotran l’orisónt, e las ombres se cedan.

Further in the shadows, coarse walls point out the horizon and the shadows recede.

A lonj, lo sol grand manda aralles de luz lumbrosa de caos, que caen en cascada por sovre de la tera.


??????????, the sun sends streams of luminous chaotic light, which fall ???? along the top of the land.

Diz que, lonj sui etád viachád, por porseguér lo camín de lo sol a ita tera de la cacha.

??????????? I've been a traveller for long, to follow(?) the path of the sun to this land of the hunt.

I think I can also dig up the Lùlàjnòj torch for translation, if anyone's interested.

[foxcatdog]

I would argue its not in true spirit to the conlang and also makes it more fun (IE. Amarin has no word for invisible it would instead use multiple hiddens of course invisible in the text could also have immaterial or metaphorical meanings so i could use it here or at least use the metaphorical marker). As of note i have barely wrapped my head around my own native tongue and only think of it in instinctual terms barely above what most EFLs who have encountered a second language on a deeper level think. I also need structure and framework to think clearly. As for future relays i am thinking of translating an unseen passage of one of my novels but the language in these is heavily stylised so i am not sure i could do it.

[bradrn]

Can we add a rule that if a conlang doesn't contain some words of the torch, they should be coined instead of substituted with synonyms? This seems to be a major reason of the increasing confusion.

I don’t agree… who gets to decide whether two words are ‘the same’? Very few languages will have an exact one-to-one correspondence of words (excepting the rare cases of full metatypy), and that should be true of conlangs too.

And a rule that the provided lexicon and grammar should be mostly about the torch, and not contain a bunch of other stuff that is 80% unnecessary for the purposes of translating the torch.

Again, I disagree. I find it interesting to have a full reference grammar and dictionary of the language. (Besides, that would make it too easy…)

I think I can also dig up the Lùlàjnòj torch for translation, if anyone's interested.

Yes please!

Also, I’d be curious to know how it’s pronounced. What are all the grave accents for?

[Zju]

Can we add a rule that if a conlang doesn't contain some words of the torch, they should be coined instead of substituted with synonyms? This seems to be a major reason of the increasing confusion.

I don’t agree… who gets to decide whether two words are ‘the same’? Very few languages will have an exact one-to-one correspondence of words (excepting the rare cases of full metatypy), and that should be true of conlangs too.

That's not my point. Very few conlangs have lexicons developed enough to translate any random torch, and if your lexicon of few hundred entries lacks an entry for a cat, and the torch has one - you should coin it. I can't be bothered to look up all the pairs of translations that struck me as odd, but e.g. what natlang uses the same lexeme for 'horizon' and 'line'?
It's true that natlangs divvy up the semantic space in different ways, but it's also true that they make up and borrow new words all the time. If the torch is about firs and oaks and spruces, you shouldn't translate them all as 'tree'. Yadda yadda.

More: show

at one point I misspelled lexicon as 'laxicon', which I think is apt for a lexicon of a few hundred entries... get it... lack-sicon

And a rule that the provided lexicon and grammar should be mostly about the torch, and not contain a bunch of other stuff that is 80% unnecessary for the purposes of translating the torch.

Again, I disagree. I find it interesting to have a full reference grammar and dictionary of the language. (Besides, that would make it too easy…)

That's true only up to a point. You really shouldn't have to dig in a 100 page descriptive grammar of a language in order to translate two paragraphs, all while the others are getting nervous and worked up about the slow progress of the relay.
And I disagree that just the necessary reference materials make it 'too easy'. It's always effortful and fun to wrap your head around a new language.

I think I can also dig up the Lùlàjnòj torch for translation, if anyone's interested.

Yes please!

Also, I’d be curious to know how it’s pronounced. What are all the grave accents for?

The grave accents mark glottalisation, creaky voice or low tone, depending on the exact time period.

Nòw ne kùj sowsèj luwluw rò Ćiw Sowśàj mewćej, ròj Ćetà Sownanàw śu nò śù śèjmej śew nì nòw. Śu, nòw pe pùwpòj tò mù nòw pujpe, mù śu śòw śò tì nòw tàj. Rò śù rò powkèw, Ćetà Sownanàw mù rìw mu śowmoj. Nòw sò śìtà mu sew pejtà. Mu me rò ćew koj pù nì pùwsowna soso, Ćiw Sowśàj mòw śèj nòw. Lùnè mew nò nòj sewsew rew nè. Mu me koj rùw nàjpakèw kow rejperew. Śò tèwsoj nòw kow śu nò śì mu sùwne nòw, ròj nùw rurà śew mì tùw. Śò tèw soj kèw tòj pope pokò rinò sèw ròj tèwsoj rew. Śò kèw mè soj rò nenekòw rò nàwnàw. Soj mu tepèj sow pewlà poj rò pa. Lùw nò nòj pe nàjsesej rò so koj sewpìw se rò mè sej pa nò rò ritàw.

More: show

Lùlàjnòj is an SVO language. If two consecutive clauses share the same subject, the second clause may drop its subject.

In general the language tends to be very head-initial, though adpositions are prepositions. Adjectives and determiners follow the nouns they modify. Adverbs and particles follow the verbs they modify.

There are no 3rd person pronouns. Demonstratives are used instead.

There's a plural marker kow, which is mostly used with animate referents - but it's not obligatory to mark the plural for nouns anyway. The marker goes after the NP, which it marks.

Difference between parts of speech is blurry, espetially nouns can be used as verbs and vice versa. Furthermore, verbs can be used as prepositions, e.g. sò 'use' can also mean 'using, with'. Further still, many verbs of motion are transitive and take their medium of motion as direct object, instead of needing a preposition for it:
Nòj ne śùj
1 move house
'I move in the house'
('I move the house' would be 'nòj mù śùj ne', see below)

Verbal negation is usually denoted by the negative particle kùj after the verb. A few verbs denote negation by means of a separate, negative root instead of the negative particle.

There is a possessive marker rò, which is used only with nouns:
śùj rò nàj nòw
house of man that
that man's house

śùj nòj
house 1
my house

rò also marks adverbs for verbs:
nòw ne rò ćew
3 move of brief
he moves briefly

It can even designate adverbial clauses
nàjpakèw śew rò lùnè rò tùw
foreigner leave of whisper of angry
the foreigner leaves, whispering angrily


Complement clauses are juxtaposed to a relative clause marker:
nòj ru nò nàj puw
1 think REL man sleep
I think that the man sleeps

Relative clauses are simple juxtaposed clauses with a demonstrative pronoun in the would-be gap:
nòj pù nàj nòw puw
1 see man 3 sleep
I see the man who sleeps

nòj nù nàj ròj pù nòw
1 hear man 2 see 3
I hear the man that you see

There is a special construction featuring the causative and factitive marker mù:
nòw mù nasòw sowśàj
3 CAUS bead white
He whitens the beads

This is marked in the lexicon like this:
mù no sowśàj 'whiten'

Some such constructions can take two objects:
nòj mù nòw pù sesej
1 CAUS 3 see way
I showed him the way

Rùw 'let' employs the same syntax


To disambiguate multiple 3rd persons, mu 'oneself' is used within the same or adjacent clause:
Nòw pù nòw
He₃ sees him₄

Nòw pù mu
He₃ sees himself₃

Mu always refers to the last uttered noun phrase, which may also be mu.


Impersonal clauses are subjectless and marked with the adverb mew:
Mòj mew.
It's needed


Lexicon:

ćetà wing
ćew brief, short
ćiw tail
ćù sense, sensation
kèw far, distant
koj to (goal marker) ; in order to
kow PL (plural marker)
kùj NEG, negative verbal marker
le stream
lùnè whisper
lùw to be heard, to be said (antipassive)
luwluw cry
me turn oneself
mè sun
mew impersonal marker
mewćej fade away, tail off
mì head
mòj need
mòw not need
mu reflexive pronoun; self, oneself
mù no pujpe comfort
mù no śowmoj prepare, get sth. ready
mù no tàj heal
nàjpakèw foreigner
nàjsesej traveller
nàwnàw bright
ne move
nè air, wind
nenekòw chaos
nì body
no which
nò this, REL (relative clause marker)
nòw that, 3rd person
nùw to sound (antipassive); to be heard
pa land
pe to be
pejtà nest
pewlà waterfall
poj top
pokò coarse
pope wall
powkèw deep
pù see, look at
pùw to look (antipassive); to be seen
pùwpòj hidden
pùwsowna gray
rejperew pass along
rew recede, leave from next to something; future tense marker
rinò point out sth.; point to sth.
ritàw hunt
rìw feet
rò of; possessive marker; adverbial marker
ròj and
rurà purr
rùw let
se path, walk
sej to, towards
śèj already; from now on
śèjmej final
sesej to travel; way
sew depart, leave from the surface of something
sèw horizon
śew depart, leave out of something
sewpìw follow
sewsew continue
śì hair
śìtà feather
so long
sò use; using, with
śò in
soj shine, light
soso stripes
sow as, like, same as
śòw tight
sownanàw black
sowśàj white
sowsèj while
śu feel, feeling
śù breath
sùwne brush against sth
tepèj to fall on sth.
tèwsoj shadow
tì chest
tò very
tòj COMP, comparative marker
tùw tilted, angry

[bradrn]

I can't be bothered to look up all the pairs of translations that struck me as odd, but e.g. what natlang uses the same lexeme for 'horizon' and 'line'?

I don’t find that at all implausible by natlang standards. In Futunan, the horizon is apparently mata ʔi laŋi ‘eye of sky’, which is no less odd. (Especially when you know that usually in Austronesian languages that compound refers to the sun.)

It's true that natlangs divvy up the semantic space in different ways, but it's also true that they make up and borrow new words all the time. If the torch is about firs and oaks and spruces, you shouldn't translate them all as 'tree'. Yadda yadda.

Yes, sure, if the distinction is meaningful. But equally, if the distinction is not meaningful I find ‘tree’ a perfectly appropriate translation.

Besides, it’s true that languages borrow new words, but they also use calquing and semantic extension and other techniques. Why should conlangs be restricted to borrowing?

That's true only up to a point. You really shouldn't have to dig in a 100 page descriptive grammar of a language in order to translate two paragraphs, all while the others are getting nervous and worked up about the slow progress of the relay.

Has anyone actually submitted a ‘100 page descriptive grammar’?

But also, I think you underestimate the number of grammatical features which can be present in a few paragraphs. In my case I actually had to write more so that Darren would have enough information to interpret it.

[Man in Space]

I usually only give enough to get the torch translated—nonsense bogging the participant down with extraneous stuff. (Then again, usually I’m using CT or CC as my torch language, and both are generally pretty “simple” as far as what I’ve needed for torches historically.)

[Zju]

I can't be bothered to look up all the pairs of translations that struck me as odd, but e.g. what natlang uses the same lexeme for 'horizon' and 'line'?

I don’t find that at all implausible by natlang standards.

I do.

In Futunan, the horizon is apparently mata ʔi laŋi ‘eye of sky’, which is no less odd.

There is a reference to the sky in that expression, so it is less odd. Now, if it was just 'eye', it would equally odd.

Yes, sure, if the distinction is meaningful. But equally, if the distinction is not meaningful I find ‘tree’ a perfectly appropriate translation.

Is it really appropriate to lose semantic information if you can help it?
I would find it disappointing if a part of the torch turned from 'the forest consisted of firs, oaks and spruces' to 'the forest consisted of various trees' at some point in the relay. And why not take the opportunity to enrich your conlang's vocab anyway?

Why should conlangs be restricted to borrowing?

They shouldn't, there's also e.g. derivations and compounding.

Has anyone actually submitted a ‘100 page descriptive grammar’?

Not yet that I know of, but the point still stands.

I usually only give enough to get the torch translated—nonsense bogging the participant down with extraneous stuff.

So do I.

[bradrn]

I can’t really argue about subjective semantic preferences, but:

Yes, sure, if the distinction is meaningful. But equally, if the distinction is not meaningful I find ‘tree’ a perfectly appropriate translation.

Is it really appropriate to lose semantic information if you can help it?

If you can help it, of course not… but sometimes there is no helping it. Natlangs do this all the time, after all. A simple example is that a translation from English to Chinese will lose gender information, and possibly information on coreference too. More subtly, a translation from English to French will probably lose information about manner of motion (because French motion verbs don’t usually encode manner).

And why not take the opportunity to enrich your conlang's vocab anyway?

Because the conlang might not be spoken in an area with ‘firs’, ‘oaks’ and ‘spruces’! For that matter, I myself barely even know what firs or spruces are — neither are native to Australia. (And neither are oaks, but those are more commonly planted.) It would be weird for a conlang to have words for those trees if the speakers don’t even know what they are, for more or less the same reason that English has no native names for Eucalyptus or Banksia.

[Zju]

If you can help it, of course not… but sometimes there is no helping it. Natlangs do this all the time, after all. A simple example is that a translation from English to Chinese will lose gender information, and possibly information on coreference too. More subtly, a translation from English to French will probably lose information about manner of motion (because French motion verbs don’t usually encode manner).

Losing grammatical information that one language encodes and the next doesn't is par for the course, but shifting the meaning to the tune of 'horizon' → 'line' isn't - especially seeing as there isn't a good reason for it.

Because the conlang might not be spoken in an area with ‘firs’, ‘oaks’ and ‘spruces’! For that matter, I myself barely even know what firs or spruces are — neither are native to Australia. (And neither are oaks, but those are more commonly planted.) It would be weird for a conlang to have words for those trees if the speakers don’t even know what they are, for more or less the same reason that English has no native names for Eucalyptus or Banksia.

Fair enough. And yet I'd appreciate it if everyone chooses a conlang with an adequate semantic field, i.e. if you find out that the torch is all about fish, maybe drop your plans to translate it into a conlang set on Dune and use some other instead.

[Man in Space]

If you can help it, of course not… but sometimes there is no helping it. Natlangs do this all the time, after all. A simple example is that a translation from English to Chinese will lose gender information, and possibly information on coreference too. More subtly, a translation from English to French will probably lose information about manner of motion (because French motion verbs don’t usually encode manner).

Losing grammatical information that one language encodes and the next doesn't is par for the course, but shifting the meaning to the tune of 'horizon' → 'line' isn't - especially seeing as there isn't a good reason for it.

Because the conlang might not be spoken in an area with ‘firs’, ‘oaks’ and ‘spruces’! For that matter, I myself barely even know what firs or spruces are — neither are native to Australia. (And neither are oaks, but those are more commonly planted.) It would be weird for a conlang to have words for those trees if the speakers don’t even know what they are, for more or less the same reason that English has no native names for Eucalyptus or Banksia.

Fair enough. And yet I'd appreciate it if everyone chooses a conlang with an adequate semantic field, i.e. if you find out that the torch is all about fish, maybe drop your plans to translate it into a conlang set on Dune and use some other instead.

First, some people may not have conlangs set in “standard” settings; second, some use relays to flesh out their languages; and third, translation by sense is a thing—I know some translations of the Bible into indigenous languages of South America translate “white as snow” as “white as cassava root” because the Amazon has almost none of the former whilst the latter is known to the inhabitants.

[bradrn]

If you can help it, of course not… but sometimes there is no helping it. Natlangs do this all the time, after all. A simple example is that a translation from English to Chinese will lose gender information, and possibly information on coreference too. More subtly, a translation from English to French will probably lose information about manner of motion (because French motion verbs don’t usually encode manner).

Losing grammatical information that one language encodes and the next doesn't is par for the course, but shifting the meaning to the tune of 'horizon' → 'line' isn't - especially seeing as there isn't a good reason for it.

Because the conlang might not be spoken in an area with ‘firs’, ‘oaks’ and ‘spruces’! For that matter, I myself barely even know what firs or spruces are — neither are native to Australia. (And neither are oaks, but those are more commonly planted.) It would be weird for a conlang to have words for those trees if the speakers don’t even know what they are, for more or less the same reason that English has no native names for Eucalyptus or Banksia.

Fair enough. And yet I'd appreciate it if everyone chooses a conlang with an adequate semantic field, i.e. if you find out that the torch is all about fish, maybe drop your plans to translate it into a conlang set on Dune and use some other instead.

First, some people may not have conlangs set in “standard” settings; second, some use relays to flesh out their languages; and third, translation by sense is a thing—I know some translations of the Bible into indigenous languages of South America translate “white as snow” as “white as cassava root” because the Amazon has almost none of the former whilst the latter is known to the inhabitants.

I agree with all of this.

[Zju]

First, some people may not have conlangs set in “standard” settings; second, some use relays to flesh out their languages; and third, translation by sense is a thing—I know some translations of the Bible into indigenous languages of South America translate “white as snow” as “white as cassava root” because the Amazon has almost none of the former whilst the latter is known to the inhabitants.

One can flesh out their language precisely by coming up with all the words necessary to translate the torch. Using 'mug' instead of 'glass' - sure, fine, whatever. But e.g. using 'cylinder' instead of 'glass' isn't.

And if one knowingly chooses a conlang that's spoken in a setting in which the torch story couldn't have taken place, and so the meanings are needlessly contorted and shifted, any preventable and unnecessary PITAs and confusion that subsequent relay participants experience are on that person.

[Man in Space]

And if one knowingly chooses a conlang that's spoken in a setting in which the torch story couldn't have taken place, and so the meanings are needlessly contorted and shifted, any preventable and unnecessary PITAs and confusion that subsequent relay participants experience are on that person.

The torch contents are secret though. You’re not going to know what it is until you get it. Knowing this would alter the game, and limiting yourself to conlangs spoken in modern or future societies is a needless bottleneck.

[Zju]

And if one knowingly chooses a conlang that's spoken in a setting in which the torch story couldn't have taken place, and so the meanings are needlessly contorted and shifted, any preventable and unnecessary PITAs and confusion that subsequent relay participants experience are on that person.

The torch contents are secret though. You’re not going to know what it is until you get it. Knowing this would alter the game, and limiting yourself to conlangs spoken in modern or future societies is a needless bottleneck.

You can always choose another conlang when you get the torch.

There's also some onus on the torch initiator not to pick any torch about time travel or even computers or cars.

edit: Now that I think of it, why does each participant not state the setting of their conlang, so that the host can pick a torch that's mostly compatible with all the participating conlangs?

[bradrn]

One other thing which hasn’t yet been mentioned: I feel that sort of the whole point of these relays is to see how weirdly the torch gets distorted by the end! That only makes it more fun when that happens.

[Man in Space]

And if one knowingly chooses a conlang that's spoken in a setting in which the torch story couldn't have taken place, and so the meanings are needlessly contorted and shifted, any preventable and unnecessary PITAs and confusion that subsequent relay participants experience are on that person.

The torch contents are secret though. You’re not going to know what it is until you get it. Knowing this would alter the game, and limiting yourself to conlangs spoken in modern or future societies is a needless bottleneck.

You can always choose another conlang when you get the torch.

Only if you have one. A fantasy creator, a sci-fi writer, and an auxlanger all have different niches.

[Zju]

One other thing which hasn’t yet been mentioned: I feel that sort of the whole point of these relays is to see how weirdly the torch gets distorted by the end! That only makes it more fun when that happens.

It's the same for me, with the addition that the fun ends with artificial difficulty and begins with staying as close to the original as possible when and where it can be helped.

It's only then that we can peek into the intrinsic differences between the conlangs, and not the instances of when somebody couldn't be bothered to derive a couple of new words that exist in the respective setting.

You can always choose another conlang when you get the torch.

Only if you have one. A fantasy creator, a sci-fi writer, and an auxlanger all have different niches.

So we go back to the other points:

There's also some onus on the torch initiator not to pick any torch about time travel or even computers or cars.

Now that I think of it, why does each participant not state the setting of their conlang, so that the host can pick a torch that's mostly compatible with all the participating conlangs?

And - I don't know about the others - but it doesn't bother me to coin a few words outside the setting just for the purposes of the relay.

An interaction - translation - between conlangs of different conworlds is already some destruction of the 4th wall, so a couple of futuristic words is not a big deal.