Zompist Bboard Again

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:26 am

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pmI was anticipating something longer, and without special words. But maybe I'll have a go at this.

Mos man de ya nahf no mekop langwic im a nof bik fi tahn long rayting, so mi tingk mi sta pon smol wan . An wo kayn a "specal woh-dem" yu min?
Most people here don't have a conlang big enough to translate long texts, so I thought I'd start with something smaller . And what "special words" do you mean?

Well, it's actually a fairly complex and culturally-dependent text that you've chosen there, albeit small.

As they sang - this is an adverbial clause indicating an action concomitant with the action of the main verb. My current project is, syntactically speaking, quite well-developed and I'm not sure how I would express this. For one thing: who is "they"? Is the hobbit included in this group or not.

the hobbit felt the love ... moving through him - this is a metaphor not shared by all languages. In Qári the equivalent metaphor would be something like "growing in his heart", I think?

of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic - "cunning" here is a deliberate word-choice by Tolkien, and is not a plain synonym of "cleverness" or "skill", having different connotations.

a fierce and a jealous love, - again, a culturally-dependent metaphor which is quite difficult to translate.

the desire of the hearts of dwarves. - not all languages permit this kind of paratactic structure.

It's not exactly Roger Red-Hat!

dewrad wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:34 am

jal wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:26 am

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pmI was anticipating something longer, and without special words. But maybe I'll have a go at this.

Mos man de ya nahf no mekop langwic im a nof bik fi tahn long rayting, so mi tingk mi sta pon smol wan . An wo kayn a "specal woh-dem" yu min?
Most people here don't have a conlang big enough to translate long texts, so I thought I'd start with something smaller . And what "special words" do you mean?

Well, it's actually a fairly complex and culturally-dependent text that you've chosen there, albeit small.

As they sang - this is an adverbial clause indicating an action concomitant with the action of the main verb. My current project is, syntactically speaking, quite well-developed and I'm not sure how I would express this. For one thing: who is "they"? Is the hobbit included in this group or not.

the hobbit felt the love ... moving through him - this is a metaphor not shared by all languages. In Qári the equivalent metaphor would be something like "growing in his heart", I think?

of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic - "cunning" here is a deliberate word-choice by Tolkien, and is not a plain synonym of "cleverness" or "skill", having different connotations.

a fierce and a jealous love, - again, a culturally-dependent metaphor which is quite difficult to translate.

the desire of the hearts of dwarves. - not all languages permit this kind of paratactic structure.

It's not exactly Roger Red-Hat!

I can’t help but think that these sorts of things are exactly what make translation so interesting!

(Although I agree that a simpler text would be nice.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:27 pmI can’t help but think that these sorts of things are exactly what make translation so interesting!

Exactly! That's what a translation challenge is all about, trying to translate stuff you don't know yet how to in your conlang, discovering along the way stuff you have yet to flesh out.

dewrad wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:34 amAs they sang - this is an adverbial clause indicating an action concomitant with the action of the main verb. My current project is, syntactically speaking, quite well-developed and I'm not sure how I would express this.

Then this is exactly the kind of thing that a translation challenge is meant for! Concomitant actions are not culturaly dependent, and so every language has a way of expressing this.

For one thing: who is "they"? Is the hobbit included in this group or not.

That would be, in all likelyhood, not a syntactic problem. But to answer the question, no he was not. The dwarves were singing.

the hobbit felt the love ... moving through him - this is a metaphor not shared by all languages.

It doesn't matter you don't have the metaphor. If you understand what it means, you can translate it in a fitting metaphore of your conlang ("the hobbit could almost see the love of ..."), or not use a metaphor at all ("the hobbit felt he understood how much the dwarves loved ...").

of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic - "cunning" here is a deliberate word-choice by Tolkien, and is not a plain synonym of "cleverness" or "skill", having different connotations.

I'm quite sure most words were chosen quite deliberate by Tolkien, but to claim he did here calls for some evidence ;). And of course it has different connotations, but what's your point? Translating will always be about making choices when there's no 1:1 translation available.

a fierce and a jealous love, - again, a culturally-dependent metaphor which is quite difficult to translate.

Or not. It depends on what you'd call "quite difficult". The dwarves loved beautiful things, to an extend that it was kinda unhealthy, wanting ever more, hoarding it and protecting it. A translation could be "an unhealthy love that made them fierce and jealous".

the desire of the hearts of dwarves. - not all languages permit this kind of paratactic structure.

So? In Sajiwan, I translated it with "burning inside the dwarf(s) heart(s)". You make it sound like it's impossible to translate the Hobbit, while it is widely translated in many different languages.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:21 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:27 pmI can’t help but think that these sorts of things are exactly what make translation so interesting!

Exactly! That's what a translation challenge is all about, trying to translate stuff you don't know yet how to in your conlang, discovering along the way stuff you have yet to flesh out.

I entirely agree. I'm just pointing out that the sample you chose is actually rather difficult, which was in response to you saying "Most people here don't have a conlang big enough to translate long texts, so I thought I'd start with something smaller . And what "special words" do you mean?", which to me implies that you picked it in order to not be particularly difficult!

dewrad wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:05 pmwhich to me implies that you picked it in order to not be particularly difficult!

Well, it isn't that difficult per se, as my suggested translations above indicate. On the other hand, I'm pretty seasoned in translating now (just finishing up chapter 3 of The Hobbit :)), so perhaps I'm thinking too lightly about it :). You can always skip parts of a translation challenge that don't fit your conlang :).


JAL

I decided to give it a try. I'm not sure if it's the most beautiful prose that can be produced in Tormiott, but in fairness to myself, no books have been published in the language

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.

Mantiorno dinian, eg hoppit cgar erruar sca gisnosuan ohta duarcan miurhianan î dau minian ni rhiananom o cathin menien laitrgain piaddirin.
/ˈmɛntɕʊɹnʊ ˈdiɲɪn | əː ˈhopːɪt kʁaɹ ˈəɹːwaɹ ska ˈʁisnʊswɪn ˈohta ˈdwaɹkɪn ˈmʏʊ̯ɹjɪnɪn ɪi̯ doʊ̯ ˈmiɲɪn ni ˈɹjɛnɪnʊm ʊ ˈkɛθɪn ˈməɲɪn ˈlɛa̯tɹʁɛa̯n ˈpjɛdːɪɹɪn/
while sing<IPFV>-3p, CL hobbit be.able.to-3s feel-3s in stomach to.what.extent dwarf.PL enjoy-3p that many be.beautiful-3p and create-3p-REFL by hand-PL be.skilled-3p be.devious-3p do.magic-3p.
(Lit. While they were singing, the hobbit was able to feel in [his] stomach to what extent dwarves love those [things which] are beautiful and [which are] created by hands [which are] skilled, devious [and] magical).

Miurhian o rasatt miccilonar ni lonar sauthia ma duarcan.
/ˈmʏʊ̯ɹjɪn ʊ ˈɹɛsɪt ˈmikːɪˌlonaɹ ni ˈlonaɹ ˈsoʊ̯θja ma ˈdwaɹkɪn/
liking ADV fury be.possessive-3s and own-3s thought POS.INAL dwarf-PL
(Lit. [A] liking [which is] furiously possessive and possesses [the] thoughts of dwarves)

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Also, this took quite a while to translate, even though I had most of the words and all of the necessary grammatical constructions. I have no idea how you've already managed to translate 3 whole chapters!

nauatla nya yakuue uamek
I'm not sure I want to translate that.

Î cin oicathriar no îrott
/ˈɪi̯kɪn ˈʊi̯kɪθɹjɪɹ no ˈɪi̯ɹʊt/
this here AUG-be.fun-3s COMPL think<IPFV>-1s
It was more fun than I thought it would be

din wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:42 pmI decided to give it a try.

Wen it go son sem it ray, Tolkin me go mek dis imsef! :). Ray kani!
If it sounds a bit like it's written, Tolkien could've devised this himself :). Very nice!

Also, this took quite a while to translate, even though I had most of the words and all of the necessary grammatical constructions. I have no idea how you've already managed to translate 3 whole chapters!

It elp mi fi Sajiwan u langwic im sem Inggles fo mata bo woh geda, an fi saybasay isi gwama. Dem pwoblam bik pas ol a dem song, dem won nof nof taym fi tahn.
It helps me that Sajiwan is a language that resembles English with regard to vocabulary and its relatively easy grammar. The biggest problems are the songs, they take a lot of time to translate.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:40 am … De biggest problems are the songs …

Yaazhshom ‘Sajiwan English’ yaazhgzhoom ang be?
/jaːʒʃom ‘Sajiwan English’ jaːʒɡʒoːm aŋ be/
3s.ABS-1s.ERG-start ‘Sajiwan English’ 3s.ABS-1s.ERG-speak now Q
Have you started speaking Sajiwan English now?

(I’m referring of course to the ‘de’ rather than ‘the’ in your sentence, which I imagine would be a fairly typical feature of Sajiwan English. I know I’d be pretty proud of myself if my conlang were well-developed enough to influence my normal English speech!)

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:56 amI’m referring of course to the ‘de’ rather than ‘the’ in your sentence

A a, no, wen im afek atol, im afek don Olandes :). Ina Sajiwan, "de" mahk pah o ples som ting ste. Oba ye, mi fo taym (fo specal afta long long bot a tahning) sta yus Sajiwan gwama wen mi ray Ingles :).
Ha ha, no, if anything, it's Dutch that influenced that :). In Sajiwan, "de" indicates the location where something resides. But yeah, I sometimes (especially after a long session of translating) start using Sajiwan grammar when I'm writing English :).


JAL

Finally translated the Hobbit passage into Calintese. I didn't bother much with changing the metaphors ('moving through him' for example). <x> is /x/, <c> is /k/, and all those acutes and graves are a poorly thought-out pitch accent system.

Yuma spèvixi, hobbítos omìlie oxéyè yú yaùtivás pròxemi dexótemi hàlluma híxie òtumago xomórara, mefèi scèmorgei yàutivá, casárinexi dlàttauneis ustinás.
As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.

y-uma spèv-ixi
3-m.ins.p sing-m.ins.p
as they were singing (with them singing)

This is an instrumental absolutive, which functions like Latin's ablative absolutive. Calintese verbals may be thought of as being like participles: in addition to taking tense/aspect/voice marking, they also agree with their subjects in gender (m/f/n), number (s/p), and case (nom/acc/gen/dat/abl/loc/ins). Because the subject of singing (yuma) is in the instrumental, so must there be a special instrumental agreement marker on spèvixi 'sing'.

hobbít-o=s om-ìl-ie ox-éyè y-ú yaùtiv-á=s
hobbit-nom.s=def feel-ipfv-m.nom.s cross-n.acc.s 3-m.acc love-acc.s=def
the hobbit felt moving through him the love

The main verb of the sentence (omìlie) agrees with a nominative noun, i.e. the subject of the sentence hobbítos. There is furthermore in Calintese a distinction between long and short nominative verbals, which signify attributives and predicates--a feature inspired by the long and short adjectives of Russian. The long/short distinction however does not arise in this passage however.

The word for hobbit was borrowed from English.

I took ‘moving through him’ to describe the love, not the magic.

pròx-emi dex-ó-t-emi hàll-uma híx-ie òt-uma=go xomór-ara,
beautiful-n.dat.s make-pass-pfv-n.dat.s hand-ins.p cleverness-ins.s wonder-ins.p=and goods-dat.s
for beautiful things made by hands and by cleverness and by wonders,

The category of verbals also translates English adjectives, as in pròxemi 'beautiful'. If we wanted we could add tense/aspect markers to this to say 'things that had been beautiful' or 'things that would be beautiful'

(The word I translate as 'things' is actually singular in the Calintese.)

mef-èi scèmorg-ei yàutiv-á,
burn-n.acc.s jealous-n.acc.s love-acc.s
a burning and jealous love

casár-in-exi dlàtt-aun-ei=s ustin-á=s.
dwarf-gen.p-n.gen.p heart-gen.p-n.acc.s=def desire-acc.s=def
the desire of the hearts of dwarves.

I took the word for dwarf casar from a Quenya word IIRC (long time since I've looked at Quenya!). Note that the genitive creates a kind of verbal. I feel justified in calling the genitive a case rather than just a derivational affix because it triggers agreement with verbals (note the double genitive markers on casar-in-exi, the -exi to agree with genitive 'hearts'), and it has different morphs specific to declensional classes, and it is productive for all nouns.

So, mi ful taym finis op cata 3 a Obit Ya, im me kac de ya.
So, I finally finished chapter 3 of The Hobbit, it can be found here.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:55 am So, I finally finished chapter 3 of The Hobbit, it can be found here.

nihampa
Very nice.

ehe na nya uatlan yaku munahi nye na nahokalan moyamenko
However, I'm a little worried to translate that as I am rewriting Kala's grammar.

jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:55 am So, mi ful taym finis op cata 3 a Obit Ya, im me kac de ya.
So, I finally finished chapter 3 of The Hobbit, it can be found here.


JAL

Yaareebem!
/jaːreːbem/
3s-good

Looks good!

kuama na yotlinyotlomue tsumpa
I always buy seedless melons.

I can't remember how to use the table function on this board, so I'll try to just chop this down into shorter pieces.

Mōt tallūdoppu hobutak' kyappogōp', rofōgabaibōp' ha pafofōp' k'ōmchyak'p'o k'ūttūk kallūttop ōppottōgōt nagappyat twügūji okp'ōt tyassokp'ō k'ūtk'ōno, kyōllap ha pūpk'a-p'ūgössen nagappyat, kyussowogōt p'yochyat mobut.

Mō-t tallūd-oppu
they-GEN sing-INE.INF

hobut-ak' kyappo-g-ōp', rofōgabaib-ōp' ha pafof-ōp' k'ōmchya-k'p'o k'ūttūk kallūttop ōppottō-g-ōt
hobbit-ERG hand-PL-INST, cunning-INST and magic-INST make-TRANSL PASS.AUX-PST.PTCP beautiful thing-PL-GEN

nagappya-t twügūji okp'ō-t tyassokp'ō k'ūtk'ōn-o,
love-GEN move.INF self-GEN through feel-PST,

kyōllap ha pūpk'a.p'ūgössen nagappya-t,
fierce and jealous love-GEN,

kyussowo-g-ōt p'yochya-t mobu-t.
dwarf-PL-GEN heart-GEN desire-GEN

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.

I didn't try to translate this so that it would culturally appropriate or anything. I just translated it as is, just focusing on how to handle the syntax.

What I learned from this is that I don't know if the hobbit in that sentence should have ergative or absolutive case, because even though the main verb feel is transitive, there isn't anything that's marked with the absolutive case. I had decided that the copula should be transitive when taking a noun as a complement, and intransitive otherwise. Should other verbs also function as intransitives when there's a whole verb phrase in object position?

This conlang has a weird feature where all intransitive verbs need to be marked with a specific suffix. Another question that arose is should this be done even on infinitives and participles? Maybe not, since no other verb categories are marked on these (except perhaps the frequentative aspect).

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:28 am As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.

What I learned from this is that I don't know if the hobbit in that sentence should have ergative or absolutive case, because even though the main verb feel is transitive, there isn't anything that's marked with the absolutive case.

Wouldn’t the hobbit be ergative, and the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic be absolutive? Or is there some reason why the object wouldn’t get marked with the absolutive?

Because love is the subject of an infinitive, so in this conlang it gets marked by the genitive case instead of the absolutive.