Zompist Bboard Again

/t/: twenty (hardly if ever pronounced), fifty, sixty, seventy
/d/: thirty, forty, eighty, ninety

I am interested in the underlying historical linguistic motivations behind those people here whose dialects differ in /t/ versus /d/ for seventy and ninety -- I did not expect this.

English speakers: Which one of the two main possible pronunciations of "dreamed" do you use?

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:34 pm English speakers: Which one of the two main possible pronunciations of "dreamed" do you use?

Either, depending on what I feel like at the moment, /dʒrɛmt/ or /dʒrimd/.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:39 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:34 pm English speakers: Which one of the two main possible pronunciations of "dreamed" do you use?

Either, depending on what I feel like at the moment, /dʒrɛmt/ or /dʒrimd/.

Thank you! Can you think of any contexts where one of them might be advisable because the other one might not be understood, or might be seen as false, or might be seen as you making a fool of yourself?

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:46 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:39 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:34 pm English speakers: Which one of the two main possible pronunciations of "dreamed" do you use?

Either, depending on what I feel like at the moment, /dʒrɛmt/ or /dʒrimd/.

Thank you! Can you think of any contexts where one of them might be advisable because the other one might not be understood, or might be seen as false, or might be seen as you making a fool of yourself?

In more formal language /dʒrɛmt/ seems more appropriate -- but in informal and even basilectal speech I will readily use /dʒrɛmt/ as well. /dʒrimd/ is almost more mesolectal than acrolectal or basilectal to me, as it feels like the morphological analogue of spelling pronunciation, where I am apt to try to avoid such things more in both acrolectal and basilectal language than in mesolectal language.

Thank you! But...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:49 pm

In more formal language /dʒrɛmt/ seems more appropriate -- but in informal and even basilectal speech I will readily use /dʒrɛmt/ as well.

Is there a typo there?

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:51 pm Thank you! But...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 4:49 pm

In more formal language /dʒrɛmt/ seems more appropriate -- but in informal and even basilectal speech I will readily use /dʒrɛmt/ as well.

Is there a typo there?

No; what I meant is that in both acrolectal and basilectal language I tend to prefer /dʒrɛmt/, in contrast to mesolectal language where I am likely to use /dʒrimd/.

A good example of this sort of thing in action is my pronunciation of the verb figure; in acrolectal speech it is /ˈfɪɡər/ because that is prescriptively correct from a historical standpoint, in basilectal speech it is /ˈfɪɡər/ because this word never underwent spelling pronunciation in basilectal dialect here in the first place, but in mesolectal speech it is /ˈfɪɡjər/ due to the force of spelling pronunciation.

I have noticed from listening to my coworkers that many of them reduce what I have in careful speech as [ɕtɕ] (e.g. question /ˈkwɛʃtʃən/ [ˈkʷʰw̥ɜɕtɕɘ̃(ː)(n)]) as [ɕː] (e.g. question [ˈkʷʰw̥ɜɕːɘ̃(ː)(n)]). I do this too, but I seem to actually be more conservative in that I often preserve the affricate as in [ɕtɕ]. Does anyone else reduce historical /stʃ/ > /ʃtʃ/ to [ɕː] or [ʃː]?

How do you pronounce "Dre", as in Dr. Dre, the rapper?

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 21, 2025 12:12 pm How do you pronounce "Dre", as in Dr. Dre, the rapper?

/dʒreɪ/ [tʃɹ̠ʁe̞(ː)]

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 21, 2025 1:09 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Oct 21, 2025 12:12 pm How do you pronounce "Dre", as in Dr. Dre, the rapper?

/dʒreɪ/ [tʃɹ̠ʁe̞(ː)]

Thank you!

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 21, 2025 10:46 am I have noticed from listening to my coworkers that many of them reduce what I have in careful speech as [ɕtɕ] (e.g. question /ˈkwɛʃtʃən/ [ˈkʷʰw̥ɜɕtɕɘ̃(ː)(n)]) as [ɕː] (e.g. question [ˈkʷʰw̥ɜɕːɘ̃(ː)(n)]). I do this too, but I seem to actually be more conservative in that I often preserve the affricate as in [ɕtɕ]. Does anyone else reduce historical /stʃ/ > /ʃtʃ/ to [ɕː] or [ʃː]?

I still have [stʃ].

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Tue Oct 21, 2025 4:09 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 21, 2025 10:46 am I have noticed from listening to my coworkers that many of them reduce what I have in careful speech as [ɕtɕ] (e.g. question /ˈkwɛʃtʃən/ [ˈkʷʰw̥ɜɕtɕɘ̃(ː)(n)]) as [ɕː] (e.g. question [ˈkʷʰw̥ɜɕːɘ̃(ː)(n)]). I do this too, but I seem to actually be more conservative in that I often preserve the affricate as in [ɕtɕ]. Does anyone else reduce historical /stʃ/ > /ʃtʃ/ to [ɕː] or [ʃː]?

I still have [stʃ].

I have heard this pronunciation from more conservative speakers (e.g. some people of my parents' generation) here.

I realised last night that I seem to have initial /nj/ in near and nearer. Anyone else?

alice wrote: ↑Wed Dec 10, 2025 2:38 pm I realised last night that I seem to have initial /nj/ in near and nearer. Anyone else?

In the dialect here near can be either [nɪ(ː)ʁˤ] or [ni(ː)ʁ̩ˤ], and I see how someone could perceive the latter as containing /nj/.

alice wrote: ↑Wed Dec 10, 2025 2:38 pmI realised last night that I seem to have initial /nj/ in near and nearer. Anyone else?

Just those words? Not in "nearest"? Not in other NEAR words like the name Niamh?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 12, 2025 3:22 am

alice wrote: ↑Wed Dec 10, 2025 2:38 pmI realised last night that I seem to have initial /nj/ in near and nearer. Anyone else?

Just those words? Not in "nearest"? Not in other NEAR words like the name Niamh?


JAL

Niamh isn't a near word (at least it the UK). It's /nɪjv/, with FLEECE – there's no (former) /r/ to cause NEAR

Lērisama wrote: ↑Fri Dec 12, 2025 9:47 am

jal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 12, 2025 3:22 am

alice wrote: ↑Wed Dec 10, 2025 2:38 pmI realised last night that I seem to have initial /nj/ in near and nearer. Anyone else?

Just those words? Not in "nearest"? Not in other NEAR words like the name Niamh?


JAL

Niamh isn't a near word (at least it the UK). It's /nɪjv/, with FLEECE – there's no (former) /r/ to cause NEAR

I agree that that is what I usually hear, but pronouncing it with NEAR might be seen as more faithful to the Irish original.