Zompist Bboard Again

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:14 pm In medial and final position it is more stable, but there is some tendency to simplify it to /p/ there, i.e. some people say Appel and Kopp.

How much is this an innovation, and how much is this a substratum influence from the Central and Low German dialects you mention?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:50 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:14 pm In medial and final position it is more stable, but there is some tendency to simplify it to /p/ there, i.e. some people say Appel and Kopp.

How much is this an innovation, and how much is this a substratum influence from the Central and Low German dialects you mention?

I don't know (I am not really a dialectologist), but the substratum theory makes sense. I don't know to which degree /pf/ is eliminated in the Upper German area.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:14 pmIn medial and final position it is more stable, but there is some tendency to simplify it to /p/ there, i.e. some people say Appel and Kopp.

Is this also in areas that used to have /pf/? And is this an independent simplification of the affricate, or is it a re-borrowing of original /p/ from lower-German dialects?


JAL

An interesting find: https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=67231

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:09 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:09 pm (Also, but that's merely a tangent, this phoneme is on its way out, with teachers fighting an uphill battle saying things like Es heißt Pferd und nicht Ferd!)

As everyone knows, das Pferd heißt Pferd weil es fährt!

Surely that only works if you do merge /pf/ into /f/ (and merge /eː/ and /ɛː/, but that is less surprising). Unless that is to illustrate the merger

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 2:08 am Unless that is to illustrate the merger

Yes, it is mant to illustrate the merger(s).

From looking around, apparently /pf/ is preserved in Upper German and regiolects under its influence; one example I saw is that while the Westphalian German regiolect has /f/ in Pferd, Bairisch still has /pf/ as does the Bavarian German regiolect.

Le francais est difficile, mais le j'aime.

AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:05 pm Le francais est difficile, mais je l'aime.

Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.

Darren wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:52 pm

AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:05 pm Le francais est difficile, mais je l'aime.

Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.

Um… and it is here, isn’t it? le is between je and aime. Unless I’m being very very stupid and missing something obvious…?

EDIT: yes, I missed something obvious, which is that you modified AwfullyAmateur’s quote.

(I think it’s best to keep the other-language discussion in the Fluency thread.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 5:35 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:52 pm

AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:05 pm Le francais est difficile, mais je l'aime.

Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.

Um… and it is here, isn’t it? le is between je and aime. Unless I’m being very very stupid and missing something obvious…?

EDIT: yes, I missed something obvious, which is that you modified AwfullyAmateur’s quote.

(I think it’s best to keep the other-language discussion in the Fluency thread.)

Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.

Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 5:35 pm

Darren wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:52 pm

Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.

Um… and it is here, isn’t it? le is between je and aime. Unless I’m being very very stupid and missing something obvious…?

EDIT: yes, I missed something obvious, which is that you modified AwfullyAmateur’s quote.

(I think it’s best to keep the other-language discussion in the Fluency thread.)

Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.

That should be « qu’I », I think.

Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am

Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.

Did you ject un brickbat que narrowly missed?

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:43 am That should be « qu’I », I think.

Oh, bien course.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:23 am

Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am

Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.

Did you ject un brickbat que narrowly missed?

Je think mon brickbat landed exactement on target.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:23 am

Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am

Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.

Did you ject un brickbat que narrowly missed?

Reference, for those unfamiliar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_French

In Germany, there's one element of names of towns and villages that is effectively a title, that is, it's as if a person would have a title of nobility or an academic title.

I'm talking about the word "Bad". Usually it means "bath" or "bathroom". In the context of place names, however, it means "spa resort". If a town or village has somehow gotten itself a reputation as a place where people go for spa treatments, the powers that be might grant the place the title "Bad", and then, afterwards, the place's name starts with that word, as in "Bad Staffelstein". It's arguably a bit pretentious.

Does that kind of thing exist elsewhere in the world?

Maybe the Sri in Sri Lanka is similar in being a title?

"Gazi" ("warrior") in the Turkish toponym Gaziantep, which previous to the French siege was simply known as (Ottoman spelling) Aīntāb.

I think there might also be similar examples from Mughal India, IIRC.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:33 am In Germany, there's one element of names of towns and villages that is effectively a title, that is, it's as if a person would have a title of nobility or an academic title.

I'm talking about the word "Bad". Usually it means "bath" or "bathroom". In the context of place names, however, it means "spa resort". If a town or village has somehow gotten itself a reputation as a place where people go for spa treatments, the powers that be might grant the place the title "Bad", and then, afterwards, the place's name starts with that word, as in "Bad Staffelstein". It's arguably a bit pretentious.

Does that kind of thing exist elsewhere in the world?

In French, -les-Bains is I believe an exact equivalent of Bad. Aix-les-Bains, for instance. Sometimes -les-Eaux, or -les-Thermes for variety, as in Challes-les-Eaux or Ax-les-Thermes. (Ax and Aix < a form of Latin aquae, so these are redundant place names.)

A few villages get -le-Désert as a suffix, as in Saint-Guilhem-le-Désert, 'desert' being here in the sense of 'uninhabited', and these places are indeed sparsely populated. I think it's linked to Protestantism, and the desert is a biblical reference, or maybe it refers to the Desert Fathers. Anyway, they were good places to escape persecution.

The city of Brive is formally known as Brive-la-Gaillarde, gaillarde meaning here 'fortified' through Occitan.

Sometimes there's a reference to the erstwhile lords of the place: Grignan-les-Adhémar was owned by the Adhémar family. Montélimar likewise, (-imar < Adhémar) but the suffix got eaten up.

Thank you!