Page 250 of 250
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:50 pm
by Travis B.
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:14 pm
In medial and final position it is more stable, but there is some tendency to simplify it to /p/ there, i.e. some people say
Appel and
Kopp.
How much is this an innovation, and how much is this a substratum influence from the Central and Low German dialects you mention?
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 4:13 pm
by WeepingElf
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:50 pm
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:14 pm
In medial and final position it is more stable, but there is some tendency to simplify it to /p/ there, i.e. some people say
Appel and
Kopp.
How much is this an innovation, and how much is this a substratum influence from the Central and Low German dialects you mention?
I don't know (I am not really a dialectologist), but the substratum theory makes sense. I don't know to which degree /pf/ is eliminated in the Upper German area.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 4:31 pm
by jal
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:14 pmIn medial and final position it is more stable, but there is some tendency to simplify it to /p/ there, i.e. some people say
Appel and
Kopp.
Is this also in areas that used to have /pf/? And is this an independent simplification of the affricate, or is it a re-borrowing of original /p/ from lower-German dialects?
JAL
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:20 pm
by bradrn
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2024 2:08 am
by Lērisama
Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:09 pm
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:09 pm
(Also, but that's merely a tangent, this phoneme is on its way out, with teachers fighting an uphill battle saying things like
Es heißt Pferd und nicht Ferd!)
As everyone knows,
das Pferd heißt Pferd weil es fährt!
Surely that only works if you
do merge /pf/ into /f/ (and merge /eː/ and /ɛː/, but that is less surprising). Unless that is to illustrate the merger
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2024 4:27 am
by Raphael
Lērisama wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 2:08 am
Unless that is to illustrate the merger
Yes, it is mant to illustrate the merger(s).
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2024 2:43 pm
by Travis B.
From looking around, apparently /pf/ is preserved in Upper German and regiolects under its influence; one example I saw is that while the Westphalian German regiolect has /f/ in Pferd, Bairisch still has /pf/ as does the Bavarian German regiolect.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:05 pm
by AwfullyAmateur
Le francais est difficile, mais le j'aime.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:52 pm
by Darren
AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:05 pm
Le francais est difficile, mais
je l'aime.
Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2024 5:35 pm
by bradrn
Darren wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:52 pm
AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:05 pm
Le francais est difficile, mais
je l'aime.
Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.
Um… and it is here, isn’t it?
le is between
je and
aime. Unless I’m being very very stupid and missing something obvious…?
EDIT: yes, I missed something obvious, which is that you modified AwfullyAmateur’s quote.
(I think it’s best to keep the other-language discussion in the Fluency thread.)
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am
by Darren
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 5:35 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:52 pm
AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:05 pm
Le francais est difficile, mais
je l'aime.
Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.
Um… and it is here, isn’t it?
le is between
je and
aime. Unless I’m being very very stupid and missing something obvious…?
EDIT: yes, I missed something obvious, which is that you modified AwfullyAmateur’s quote.
(I think it’s best to keep the other-language discussion in the Fluency thread.)
Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:43 am
by bradrn
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 5:35 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2024 2:52 pm
Le pronom d'objet direct toujours se trouve entre le pronom de sujet et le verbe.
Um… and it is here, isn’t it?
le is between
je and
aime. Unless I’m being very very stupid and missing something obvious…?
EDIT: yes, I missed something obvious, which is that you modified AwfullyAmateur’s quote.
(I think it’s best to keep the other-language discussion in the Fluency thread.)
Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.
That should be « qu’I », I think.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:23 am
by Raphael
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am
Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.
Did you ject un brickbat que narrowly missed?
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:27 am
by Darren
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 2:43 am
That should be « qu’I », I think.
Oh, bien course.
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:23 am
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am
Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.
Did you ject un brickbat que narrowly missed?
Je think mon brickbat landed exactement on target.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:30 am
by bradrn
Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 3:23 am
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:49 am
Oui, mais il started speaking en français so I pensé que I should reply in turn.
Did you ject un brickbat que narrowly missed?
Reference, for those unfamiliar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_French