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Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2025 1:52 pm
by Travis B.
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 10:47 am
And now for something completely different: Apparently, the long mysterious Linear Elamite script
has been deciphered recently.
Interesting!
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2025 3:24 pm
by keenir
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Sep 27, 2025 10:47 am
And now for something completely different: Apparently, the long mysterious Linear Elamite script
has been deciphered recently.
If its true, this is fantastic!
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2025 8:14 pm
by Travis B.
I was at a bar/restaurant in Old Ashippun north of Oconomowoc for a fish fry and the waitress had a noticeably cute accent reminiscent of the English I have heard from some people in a rural area outside of Madison which was distinct from the usual southeastern Wisconsin English I am used to.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:13 am
by Man in Space
In the ALC, zompist writes that “It seems that no languages allow incorporating agents.” A little later, when talking about quasi-incorporated compounds in English, “Curiously, a few of these incorporate the agent: employee-run, ghost-written, moth-eaten.” I wonder if these could be explained as nominalizations of applicative constructions, kid of like the Ainu phenomenon he alluded to in that section, where the “agent” is kind of an oblique: the company is run by its employees, it was written via ghostwriter, the vest got eaten by moths.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:45 am
by bradrn
Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:13 am
In the
ALC, zompist writes that “It seems that no languages allow incorporating agents.” A little later, when talking about quasi-incorporated compounds in English, “Curiously, a few of these incorporate the agent:
employee-run, ghost-written, moth-eaten.” I wonder if these could be explained as nominalizations of applicative constructions, kid of like the Ainu phenomenon he alluded to in that section, where the “agent” is kind of an oblique:
the company is run by its employees,
it was written via ghostwriter,
the vest got eaten by moths.
I’m not sure, but it’s worth noting that at least one Munda language (Sora, I think?) allows true agent incorporation.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:49 am
by Starbeam
I can't get over Arapaho not having any open* vowels. Wikipedia disclaims over 98% of languages have an /a/-type vowel, but even that seems like lowballing it. Is this the analysis, what's going on there?
*Are the terms "close and open" really more common than "high and low"? All the years i've been here, speaking with people from many different countries, i've always seen "high/ low" be preferred. Wikipedia insists that's more of an Americanism.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:55 am
by malloc
Starbeam wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:49 amI can't get over Arapaho not having any open* vowels. Wikipedia disclaims over 98% of languages have an /a/-type vowel, but even that seems like lowballing it. Is this the analysis, what's going on there?
That has always baffled me as well. I wonder if /O/ in Arapahoe actually sounds closer to [A] or something.
*Are the terms "close and open" really more common than "high and low"? All the years i've been here, speaking with people from many different countries, i've always seen "high/ low" be preferred. Wikipedia insists that's more of an Americanism.
Perhaps it serves to avoid confusion with high and low toned vowels. One can imagine the phrase "high vowel" inviting that sort of ambiguity.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:57 am
by /ˌnɐ.ˈɾɛn.dɚ.ˌduːd/
Starbeam wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:49 am
*Are the terms "close and open" really more common than "high and low"? All the years i've been here, speaking with people from many different countries, i've always seen "high/ low" be preferred. Wikipedia insists that's more of an Americanism.
personally, I prefer using close/open over high/low, but i'm not sure that one is strictly more common than the other. either way, you're bound to be understood whichever way you phrase it.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2025 10:50 am
by Travis B.
malloc wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:55 am
Starbeam wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:49 amI can't get over Arapaho not having any open* vowels. Wikipedia disclaims over 98% of languages have an /a/-type vowel, but even that seems like lowballing it. Is this the analysis, what's going on there?
That has always baffled me as well. I wonder if /O/ in Arapahoe actually sounds closer to [A] or something.
This reminds me of how "/ɔ/" in good portions of NAE is really more like [ɒ] when not before /r/.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2025 4:52 am
by Ephraim
malloc wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:55 am
Starbeam wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:49 amI can't get over Arapaho not having any open* vowels. Wikipedia disclaims over 98% of languages have an /a/-type vowel, but even that seems like lowballing it. Is this the analysis, what's going on there?
That has always baffled me as well. I wonder if /O/ in Arapahoe actually sounds closer to [A] or something.
Apparently, long /ɛː/ is more open than short /ɛ/, and is actually more like [æː]. So that might count as an open vowel. I guess this would be true for extra long /ɛːː/ as well. Extra long /ɔːː/ is apparently more retracted than both the long and short version but I don't know if it's necessarily more open.
Also, the diphthong <oe> is apparently [aɪ].
https://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~cdicanio/ ... s_talk.pdf
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 12:56 am
by Glass Half Baked
To my ears, Arapaho /o/ has only ever sounded like [ʌ]. Historically, it is a straight-forward reflex of PA /a/, so probably the question of how /a/-y versus how /o/-y it is, is a matter for the philosophers.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:18 am
by Raphael
Unrelated: does anyone else find it weird or interesting how the English word social and the German word sozial, despite being clearly linguistically closely related and having very similar meanings, nevertheless ended up having almost opposite connotations?
In English, the word "social" seems to be mainly associated with rich people, the kind of people who might be members of an exclusive social club.
In German, the word "sozial" is mainly associated with poor people, the kind of people who might get paid the one or other kind of social benefits.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:22 am
by WeepingElf
Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:18 am
Unrelated: does anyone else find it weird or interesting how the English word
social and the German word
sozial, despite being clearly linguistically closely related and having very similar meanings, nevertheless ended up having almost opposite
connotations?
In English, the word "social" seems to be mainly associated with rich people, the kind of people who mind be members of an exclusive social club.
In German, the word "sozial" is mainly associated with poor people, the kind of people who might get paid the one or other kind of social benefits.
It is weirder still that in UK English, a
public school is a - usually very expensive - private school.
Also, in Portuguese,
democratico social means center-right rather than center-left politics.
That's false friends for you
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:53 am
by Richard W
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:22 am
It is weirder still that in UK English, a
public school is a - usually very expensive - private school.
Ah, but it's available for the public.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 11:43 am
by Travis B.
Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:53 am
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:22 am
It is weirder still that in UK English, a
public school is a - usually very expensive - private school.
Ah, but it's available for the public.
The terminology dates back to before education was mandated for all, and
public here meant that they took anyone who would pay them sufficient money; when education became mandated for all, the term
state school came to be used for government-run schools because 'public school' was already taken.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2025 3:35 pm
by Richard W
Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 11:43 am
Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 10:53 am
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:22 am
It is weirder still that in UK English, a
public school is a - usually very expensive - private school.
Ah, but it's available for the public.
The terminology dates back to before education was mandated for all, and
public here meant that they took anyone who would pay them sufficient money; when education became mandated for all, the term
state school came to be used for government-run schools because 'public school' was already taken.
Just like
public house.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2025 12:00 am
by Travis B.
Have any of you learned a word "wrong" because of differences between the phonological systems of one's native idiolect and that of the variety one learned it from?
One example for me is Star Trek ─ I learned it as /ˈstɑrˌtræk/ [ˈsʲtʲɑʁˤˌtʃʰɹ̠̥ʁ̥ɛʔk] rather than the expected /ˈstɑrˌtrɛk/ [ˈsʲtʲɑʁˤˌtʃʰɹ̠̥ʁ̥ɜʔk] because I mapped the [ɛ] of the variety I learned it from onto /æ/ as I typically pronounce /æ/ in this position as [ɛ].
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2025 4:07 am
by anteallach
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:22 am
Also, in Portuguese,
democratico social means center-right rather than center-left politics.
I assumed that that was an example of
sinistrisme. (Indeed, although the article is mainly about France, the Portuguese party is linked to at the end.)
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:35 pm
by WeepingElf
anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 4:07 am
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Oct 17, 2025 9:22 am
Also, in Portuguese,
democratico social means center-right rather than center-left politics.
I assumed that that was an example of
sinistrisme. (Indeed, although the article is mainly about France, the Portuguese party is linked to at the end.)
In Denmark, the
Venstre, whose name means 'Left', is now a centrist if not centre-right party - it was leftist by the standards of the 19th century, but it is no longer leftist today.
Re: Linguistic Miscellany Thread
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2025 2:16 pm
by anteallach
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 1:35 pm
anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Oct 18, 2025 4:07 am
I assumed that that was an example of
sinistrisme. (Indeed, although the article is mainly about France, the Portuguese party is linked to at the end.)
In Denmark, the
Venstre, whose name means 'Left', is now a centrist if not centre-right party - it was leftist by the standards of the 19th century, but it is no longer leftist today.
Yes, that is a classic example. They also have Radikale Venstre ("Radical Left") who are to the left of Venstre but certainly not what anyone would expect from a literal interpretation of the name.
Norway also has a party called Venstre who are actually towards the right of the political spectrum.