Ancient West Africa and Bantu Conlang 5 6 2020: Quick Grammar, Texts with Grammar Notes, Etc

[bradrn]

Also, where is your conlang grammar that's very non-Indo-European? I've got some time, I'll go look. Do you have a website too that I could visit, to see what sort of conlanger and language scientist you are? Me, I'm happy to meet and interact with other conlangers.

Here as it happens. It's incomplete and out of date (I'm actually in the middle of preparing the actual full site, and haven't quite got around to finishing that up, so updating the written-down grammar is not a priority), and I'm not very good at writing in this style in the first place.

To be honest, I don't really share my work here anymore. I used to back when I was still new here, and didn't get any useful feedback so I stopped, and now I more or less exclusively share things in Discord servers where I'm all but guaranteed someone to comment on my work.

You should share this conlang here — I’ve just skimmed through it, but it looks good so far!

Don't hassle me about it or I'll block you.

Go on then. Block me. Block Znex. Block people until there's nobody left who cares enough to reply. Your work is fairly mediocre by the by, so nobody's going to give you the praise you're seeking. Run along back to Facebook, it's seemingly doing well enough for you. No doubt you've already chased off everyone there who criticises you.

I know he’s already blocked me. And, at this point, I don’t really care; as should be obvious from my little rant above, I was once happy to defend Bob, but not any more. But I did warn him in a PM that — as you say — if he keeps on driving people away like this then he’ll have no-one left to comment on his work.

[Curlyjimsam]

Maybe if you spent less time attacking people for criticising you you'd have some spare time you could use to rewrite your Facebook posts in a ZBB-friendly manner.

[KathTheDragon]

You should share this conlang here — I’ve just skimmed through it, but it looks good so far!

Well, maybe I will! It'd be more expository than anything, but... maybe.

[masako]

Don't hassle me about it or I'll block you.

Oh, the horror.

[Frislander]

Consider that your audience here is for all intents and purposes the latter, and write accordingly. Writing for both audiences is just going to be condescending, as if you think we need all these things explained to us like we're five-year-olds.

I write my posts for post facebook and zompist bboard all at the same time.

See this? This right here? This is a large part of why people aren't responding well to the stuff you post, because you don't seem to get that different platforms have different standards. On Facebook it may well be reasonable to expect that some of your audience would be unfamiliar with the relevant terminology like "genitive" (which like all good terms can be shortened in a gloss to GEN) and might be more receptive to an English-based glossing system. But on here not only is it reasonable to assume that people will understand if you use technical terminology, in the few cases where this is not the case it is reasonable to assume that the people concerned would be willing to look up the terms, so there really is no objection to not using these terminology.

Quick PSA for my fellow Brits who are confused about this whole 3.0 GPA thing. Turns out it’s equivalent to a 2:2 (also known as “a desmond” or “the degree classification that won’t allow you to do a masters”)

Shout out to my peeps who graduated with a first, on that note.

Also no shame if like me you got at 2.1 instead.

Also I've never heard anyone other than my dad refer to it as a "Desmond". Correspondingly there's the "Douglas" for a 3rd, a rather oblique reference to a sadly still not yet dead Thatcherian cabinet member.

[bradrn]

Consider that your audience here is for all intents and purposes the latter, and write accordingly. Writing for both audiences is just going to be condescending, as if you think we need all these things explained to us like we're five-year-olds.

I write my posts for post facebook and zompist bboard all at the same time.

See this? This right here? This is a large part of why people aren't responding well to the stuff you post, because you don't seem to get that different platforms have different standards. On Facebook it may well be reasonable to expect that some of your audience would be unfamiliar with the relevant terminology like "genitive" (which like all good terms can be shortened in a gloss to GEN) and might be more receptive to an English-based glossing system. But on here not only is it reasonable to assume that people will understand if you use technical terminology, in the few cases where this is not the case it is reasonable to assume that the people concerned would be willing to look up the terms, so there really is no objection to not using these terminology.

Seconded. Bob, if you see this, you should note that following this advice here would make your posts far better. (Though I don’t think he’s reading any of my posts.)

[Vardelm]

Edited for reasons.

[alice]

Quick PSA for my fellow Brits who are confused about this whole 3.0 GPA thing. Turns out it’s equivalent to a 2:2 (also known as “a desmond” or “the degree classification that won’t allow you to do a masters”)

I got a 2.2, and I did a Master's...

[Curlyjimsam]

I don't like a lot of Bob's presentation style, but I can't say I'm too bothered about whether he writes "of" or "GEN". It's clear enough what is meant either way.

[bradrn]

Edited for reasons.

The sad thing is that Bob has shown the ability to use linguistic terms correctly, but nonetheless refuses to do it most of the time.

[bradrn]

I don't like a lot of Bob's presentation style, but I can't say I'm too bothered about whether he writes "of" or "GEN". It's clear enough what is meant either way.

I’m actually not too bothered about it either. But Bob’s presentation style doesn’t have too much explanatory text, so he loses a lot of clarity when he doesn’t use formal linguistic terms. For instance, if he says something like ‘possession is noun-of noun’ (and even that has more explanatory text than most of Bob’s posts), then how do you know which noun is possessed and which noun is possessor? Replacing that by something like noun-GEN noun or possessor-of possessed would make it much more clearer as to what he’s saying.

[Curlyjimsam]

I don't like a lot of Bob's presentation style, but I can't say I'm too bothered about whether he writes "of" or "GEN". It's clear enough what is meant either way.

I’m actually not too bothered about it either. But Bob’s presentation style doesn’t have too much explanatory text, so he loses a lot of clarity when he doesn’t use formal linguistic terms. For instance, if he says something like ‘possession is noun-of noun’ (and even that has more explanatory text than most of Bob’s posts), then how do you know which noun is possessed and which noun is possessor? Replacing that by something like noun-GEN noun or possessor-of possessed would make it much more clearer as to what he’s saying.

I think the problem here specifically is the lack of idiomatic translation. If Lucy-of house is accompanied by natural English "Lucy's house" the problem goes away. This is, of course, good linguistic practice anyway, and one which Bob would be well advised to follow (it might even make things easier for his Facebook readers too!). So I think - along the lines of what you're saying - that the main problem is excessive reliance on the glosses rather than the details of the glosses themselves.

[Bob]

I've started doing more translations in this "Ancient Bantu" conlang. Here's some samples. These texts are from the Epic of Son-Jara (of the Old Mali Empire). I recently realized that West Africa is mostly Non-Bantu Niger-Congo. Oh well, Pakuni is based on those and I've been working on that for months this year before working on Atlantean.

The words are based on Swahili and there's going to be many imitation Swahili words to speed up translation. The grammar is based on Swahili but many different Bantu languages, if I remember. I'll mark these by doubling their initial letter.

I hope to upload all the translations and notes in the next month.

...

Page 69.
Line 1803.
They said,
If you seek Sumamuru,
ask of the hawk!
The balaphone of seven keys:
After Sumamuru had played that balaphone,
the mallets of the balaphone he would take,
AND give them to the hawk.

...

Wa-sema-a,
Kama u-tafuta-a
Sumamuru,
n-uliza m=wewe!

Bala n-kunguo n-saba-a:
Nyuma.ya Sumamuru
a-li-gguda-a bala-le,
ny=unda bala-a
a-li-hu-shika-wa,
NA a-pa-wa-a
kwa m=wewe.

...

Some grammar notes:

To make translation easier, I follow the English clause and phrase order quite closely. It has a native word order, though.

u-tafuta-a
you-seek-him


n-uliza
Imperative-ask


ny=unda
Non-pluralizing noun class
= mallet

a-li-gguda-a
he-did-play-it
did : Past Tense

a-li-hu-shika-wa
he-did-habitually-take-them
habitually: Habitual

a-pa-wa-a
he-give-them-him

...

Image: Along with Atlantean, I've been studying the famous medieval West African Benin bronzes. Here's one I found somewhere online.

100063541_1239828242854396_8861145747924451328_o (1).jpg (188.78 KiB) Viewed 9596 times

Here's a map of c 1475 AD West Africa that includes the Old Mali Empire and the Benin Empire (or Kingdom, it looks quite small).

WestAfrica1475AD-1.jpg (101.03 KiB) Viewed 9596 times

[Vilike]

Bob, if you're posting your work on Facebook and ZBB at the same time and find it hard to rewrite content according to your audience each time (understandable), I suggest that you split the load. Post some work for a general audience on Facebook, and some other about a different language or research here, for a more linguistically inclined crowd (btw, did you read my website?).
That's what I do (except not on FB): there are some conlangs I'm talking about on a French forum, others on Tumblr, others on a Discord server; and although there be overlap sometimes, I do not have to serve the same content to different communities every time.

If you must choose, let it be known that I am more interessed in your bantu conlang.

[Imralu]

Swahili notably does not mark its verb for object, or not much.

Are you sure about this? I’m pretty sure Swahili is well known for its polypersonal agreement. Even a random grammar I found has plenty of examples:

ananipenda s/he loves me
simwoni I don’t see him
tunamfahamu we know her

(Source: Swahili Learners’ Reference Grammar, by Thompson and Schleicher.)

Maybe OP meant something about the fact that object marking is not obligatory on the verb if the object is present as a noun as well. Marking the object on a verb in the presence of the object noun is most common for definite, animate objects and least common for indefinite, inanimate objects. When the object is only pronominal (not present as a noun), then it must be marked on the verb.

[bradrn]

Swahili notably does not mark its verb for object, or not much.

Are you sure about this? I’m pretty sure Swahili is well known for its polypersonal agreement. Even a random grammar I found has plenty of examples:

ananipenda s/he loves me
simwoni I don’t see him
tunamfahamu we know her

(Source: Swahili Learners’ Reference Grammar, by Thompson and Schleicher.)

Maybe OP meant something about the fact that object marking is not obligatory on the verb if the object is present as a noun as well. Marking the object on a verb in the presence of the object noun is most common for definite, animate objects and least common for indefinite, inanimate objects. When the object is only pronominal (not present as a noun), then it must be marked on the verb.

Oh, I thought that the object always needed to be marked in Swahili — thanks for the correction!

[Bob]

Here's another example of the Bantu conlang I'm translating historic texts into it.

(

This is a most interesting exercise. Again, the purpose of it is to make a cheap and easy approximation of the actual language of the The Epic of Son Jara (1960s Mandinka language). Which I sadly lack because while the great Mwindo Epic of west Congo is bilingual, albeit not facing, as in The Tale of Kieu (1800s Vietnamese, an imitation of the Japanese' The Tale of Genji), The Epic of Son Jara is not.

Actually, I would rather be spending all this time studying the Mwindo Epic, which I also own, and its Bantu language, though it is also from the 1960s. (Although I'm much more into ancient or even historical languages, as a rule.) But its myth is more hunter-gatherer whereas The Epic of Son Jara is more civilization (historical oral epic of The Old Mali Empire, that of Timbuktu) and thus more fitting to my current project doing extensive translations into the fictional Atlantean language of the 2001 Disney animated epic "Atlantis: The Lost Empire", like a modern urban legend and New Age beliefs fairy tale. The concept of Atlantis in that film is that all peoples as well as all earliest civilizations came from it, its urban core and palace being the only survivors of a universal Great Flood. So it's actually a lot like Gilgamesh, with the explorers traveling through extensive tunnels in order to seek of "Noah" some amazing thing that ends up being The Fountain of Youth or something like it.

But it's notable that in the process of doing this project, I've not only found the original language of The Epic of Son Jara but found that all of west Africa is Non-Bantu Niger-Congo languages like its Kwa Branch that I know from the past two years' studies of The Pakuni Language from the 1970s tv series Land of the Lost. Which are highly analytic in contrast to the fusional / agglutinative nature of the Bantu languages of the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa.

However, I still notably have a detailed grammar / primer and separate dictionary of Swahili from Teach Yourself, which I own, and nothing like that for any Non-Bantu Niger-Congo language. However, it also matters that I have a sizeable Bantu Branch text in that Mwindo Epic, though it is not side by side, and a huge library of bilingual Zulu Texts from the late 1800s, which are side by side, and also sadly without glossary. Yet with some time, you can find repeating verbs and nouns and figure out some core things. And the verbs always do the same things, so you've gotten the most of it with only a few hours' of investigation.

But how does this fit into my overall program of study?

Well, my #1 specialty is logographic writing systems. So I study exotic modern languages like Ojibwe aka Anishnaabemowin for breadth of anthropological and language science experience. But then it also fits into my extensive study of Egyptian Hieroglyphic texts, as comparative anthropology and comparative mythology are entirely sorely lacking from all scholarship on Ancient Egypt, and I have found comparison with elsewhere in Africa to be the best of all for that.

So I study a lot of stuff and could fit in almost anything almost anywhere. In short.

It's also notable that the past 3 years have seen me become one of history's few experts in the 1600s Massachusett language, what I consider to be the second most important historical Native American (indigenous New World) language of all time. Or close to that. I've found from recent research that a lot of American Blacks and Whites probably have Native American blood. So getting into historical and prehistorical West Africa is fitting for further establishing myself as an occasional scholar of all things relevant to the USA.

Otherwise, I haven't done much with African American Studies. I notably specialize in c 1600s to 1800s accounts by African American slaves of their lives in Africa, enslavement, transport, and lives in (mostly the USA or future USA). I've done some reading besides, even I would say significant readings and maybe a few significant projects, though none especially large. With special attention to anthropological details, and especially my own specialty within anthropology, the comparative study of beliefs (aka comparative religions). And in particular, the last 3 years have seen me make great progress in seemingly rare or pioneering work discovering historic and recent ethnographic evidence of reincarnation beliefs in Africa. (Reincarnation beliefs are historically, prehistorically, and anthropologically rare and thus interesting for their many and greatly varying forms.)

I do remember, however, spending a couple years carefully listening to, and re-listening to, Brian Fagan's "Great Courses" CD lecture series on "Human Prehistory and the First Civilizations" (UCLA or UC Berkley or such). Which included a survey of all such for Sub-Saharan Africa. ( His specialty, actually. ) He is a prolific author of very readable books on archaeology besides, comparable to E A Wallis Budge (my special favorite). I still have the booklet somewhere but only seldom make reference to it, focusing on myths via comparative anthropology as a gateway and approach to prehistory rather than what archaeologists have to tell us. Though I have critical reference to such things.

Anyway, again, I decided to translate some select interesting texts from The Epic of Son Jara into Atlantean and wanted to add a nice contrast conlang of my own which also addressed the audience of Atlantis The Lost Empire fans (apparently mostly Americans about 25, 10 years younger than myself) but also fit into my own research.

It's notable that a month or more into this project, which I outlined from the beginning in facebook posts, here in the USA there was the George Floyd outrageous murder / genocide controversy which is associated with Black Lives Matters protests across the USA. Which I myself don't like because it polarizes my audience and facebook people typically think your posts make extensive reference to current events. As if I have time to attend a lot to current events, study tons of ancient languages, and do all the other stuff I do! But this is how people think.

So I've decided to not change plans but press forward and try to handle everything with tact. But it may be an imprudent and stubborn decision that will cost my facebook groups members. Sigh. I try to meet the general public and other scholars half way but it doesn't always work out. I've been trying to make clear that I started this project a month or two before the Black Lives Matters protests begin. Or whatever you want to call them, I'm not trying here to especially take sides or alienate anyone from my audience. Though most modern Western scholars have no qualms about browbeating their readers, a tactless and hate-creating attitude which I'd like to point out has some relevance to the current general situation.

)

...

Oops! I ran out of time to type up yet another example of my translations. Perhaps another time. Above is a delightful window into the theory that goes behind my scientific exploration and scholarship, my conlangs (invented languages) inclusive.

[Bob]

I changed the title of the thread to better reflect its current and possible future contents:

A Quick Grammar of the "Approximated Ancient Bantu Language Weds 5 6 2020"

was changed to:

Ancient West Africa and Bantu Conlang 5 6 2020: Quick Grammar, Texts with Grammar Notes

I should maybe call it Bantu and Niger-Congo Conlang but there's only so much space.

[Bob]

Okrand Atlantean and Bantu Conlang for West African historic "Epic of Son-Jara" Line 1818 Onward

...

I chose this text because it's especially gruesome and noteable. This is a historical oral epic from the 1960s in around Ghana. The protagonists are Muslim and this main antagonist, Sumamuru, described here, is presented as a Pagan sorcerer king of some sort. During my life, I have read extensively in anthropology and the anthropological details intrigue me.

The problem with anything from (the 1960s) is that it could also be based on rumors and folklore from Germany or the USA. But I doubt it. For a certain ancient and real-life example, consider iconographic discussion of the Mayan Hieroglyph SHIELD, read "pakal", I think.

Text B, Page D.

...

English:

Line 1818.
Sumamuru came amongsts us, His pants of human skin.
Sumamuru came amongst us,
His coat of human skin.
Sumamuru came amongst us,
His helm of human skin.
The first and ancient king,
The King of yesteryear.
So, respite does not end resolve. Sumamuru, I found you gone. Oh Glorious Janjon!

...

Bantu conlang:

Sumamuru
a-li-ja
katikati.ya-tu,
suruali-a ng=ozi-a.kibindamu-aa.

Sumamuru
a-li-ja
katikati.ya-tu,
m=paku-a ng=ozi-a.kibindamu-aa.

Sumamuru
a-li-ja
katikati.ya-tu,
usukani-a ng=ozi-a.kibindamu-aa.

M=falne-a.kwanza na m=tu-a.kale,
m=falne m=bbidu-aa.

Meta, m=figo a-hawa-ssupa-a m=bigabiga.

Chiki! Janjon-tukufu!

...

Grammar notes:

a-, he-
VERB-a, him
NOUN-a, his
-tu, us
li-, did [Past Tense]
hawa-, not, [Negation]
-aa, -of
noun.class.marker=NOUN.ROOT
Doubled initial letter: This is imitation Swahili. All other words are used as specified in the Teach Yourself Swahili dictionary.

...

Okrand Atlantean:
( There's so many Atlantean conlangs and pseudo-conlangs, some inspired by this one, that I've been calling it Okrand Atlantean after its creator, Marc Okrand, who also made Klingon and Vulcan. )
( This follows English word order more in order to make it easier for me to translate. I might eventually make a translation that follows Atlantean word and clause order perfectly but it would be a lot of hassle. )

NARTAK-WER SALDUP-IMOT GWISIT MIB,
[BERAK] TUGIN IPIHOK-AG TAROB-EN-AG.

NARTAK-WER SALDUP-IMOT GWISIT MIB,
[BUROK] TUGIN IPIHOK-AG TAROB-EN-AG.

NARTAK-WER SALDUP-IMOT GWISIT MIB,
[GAMAL] TUGIN IPIHOK-AG TAROB-EN-AG.

MAKIT DINLAG GIM HEGMIL,
MAKIT YANUT-LOSH-AG.

BAT, PIGOSH-IR KWAM BOSIL-IMOT NOSHIB-IR-TEM.

NARTAK-WER-TOP, KOMTIB-DIMIK MOHIT.

UM! MARTAK-WER MASHIG-MIL!

...

Grammar notes:

Nartak-wer, "Narwhal Man", a god name: like Hades.
-imot, he did [-PAST-3.SG ]
gwis, we
gwisit, us [ 1.SG.PRONOUN-ACCUSATIVE.NOUN.CASE ]
mib, among [ A POSTPOSITION ]
tug, he
tugin, his
-ag, of [ GENITIVE.NOUN.CASE ]
-en, things [ PLURAL ]

-lag, -th as in fourth [ ORDINAL.NUMERAL ]
gim, and
-mil, of [-ADJECTIVE-SINGULAR ]
-losh, like "yester-"

-ir, like "-tion"
kwam, not
-tem, him [ OBLIQUE.NOUN.CASE (like ACCUSATIVE AND DATIVE ) ]
-top, O ye [ VOCATIVE.NOUN.CASE ]
-imik, I did [-PAST.TENSE-1.SG ]
-dimik, I did the opposite of
-d- [ OPPOSITE OR CONTRARY ]
( I'm not sure about this one. )

"I found you gone" corresponds to
"find KOMTIB contrary D did IM i IK"

...

"Hand-crafted" words:
( These are new Okrand Atlantean words made by me in loose imitation of the original words and according to various methods which are further specified in an appendix made for recording such. I think I made these below by creatively blending various Indo-European words. So TAROB looks like the ANTHRO- of anthropology. These words might instead be from a 31 language dictionary I have and make reference to Japanese, Swahili, Finnish, and a few others in addition to modern major IE European languages. Though otherwise, I and Bruce Irving make new Atlantean words from a variety of ancient and historic attested and reconstructed languages. )

pants, berak
coat, burok
helm, gamal
human, tarob
skin, ipihok

...

Image: Mayan Hieroglyph for "shield", PAKAL.

[Bob]

I just finished the Bantu Conlang for this one. Here it is:

...
...

Text E, Page A.

The Epic of Son-Jara. Page 97. Line 2900.

Pretty words and truth are not the same. No matter how long the road, it always comes out at someone's home. The Nyani king with his army came forward, saying the Manden belonged to him,

Okrand Atlantean Conlang:
Palab-en hoges-mig gim marat kwam bushik-etoh. Shosh winyin-en liyak-ag, kwib-in meytor-etot beyan-tem pog-an--mil. Makit Rakuda-ag sundak-es tugin dodel-imot, basheb-e Adlantis-tem luwut-imot.

Ancient Africa Conlang:
Ma=neno-zuri na kweli wa-hawa-ile. Barabara u=refu-ote-aa: A-sikuzote-a ku-maliza pa-kwetu m=tu-ingine-aa. NNyani m=falne naa jeshi-a wa-bele-ja, cchigi-sema MManden a-wa-a m=tu-ni-aa,

...

Text E, Page B.

saying no more was he rival to any, saying the Manden belonged to him. He found the Kuyate patriarch with tendons cut, and beckoned him to rise, Let us go! Bala Faseke Kuyate, arise. Let us go! He lurched forward, saying he would rise. He fell back to the ground again, his two Achilles tendons cut: O Nare Magan Konate! Arise and let us go!

Okrand Atlantean Conlang:
Basheb-e kwam mashus-id-detot, basheb-e Adlantis-tem luwut-imot. Gamos-ir taslond-mil: Beyloh-ag Peyes-uses keyan-en sek-eshlimtoh, Gim tugit podab shilayb-imot, Toy-yoh! Bor-in sheyuh-imot, Basheb-e podeb-onot. Wan gem-tem shodib-imot, keyan-en-ya Ketak-ag sek-i: Bodim Adlantis Shewayk-top! Podab gim toy-yoh!

Ancient Africa Conlang:
CChigi-sema bbogi a-hawa-shindana-a m=tu-ote, a-li-wa m=tu-a-aa. A-li-vumbua KKuyate cchumvi wa-o-liw-kata ma=chuwi-a, na a-li-ita-a ku-inuka, Tu-enda-e! BBala FFaseke KKuyate, n-inuka. Tu-enda-e! A-bele-pepesuku, cchigi-sema a-ta-inuka. A-li-anguka kwa chini tena, vy=akukuamba-wili vy==kata: DDi Nnare Mmagan Kkonate! N-inuka na tu-enda-e!

...


Text E, Page C.

I have no rival in Mandenland now! The Manden is mine alone."

Okrand Atlantean Conlang:
Bish-in mashus-id-dekih! Adlantis yom susol-ekik."

Ancient Africa Conlang:
Ni-hawa-hesabu-a m=shindani-ji-ote mu-Mmanden-chi sasa! Ni-llakini-fanyiza Mmanden."

Text E done.

...
...