Language Practice (Help your fluency)

[Travis B.]

Gegenfrage: Gibt es eine Variante, die von Allen als Dialekt des Englischen angesehen wird, und die man in diesem Thread so schreiben könnte, dass sie sich eindeutig vom Standard-Englischen unterscheidet?

Counter-question: is there a variant that is universally seen as a dialect of English and that could be written in this thread in such a way that it would definitely look different than Standard English?

Ich würde sagen, dass Scottisch-Englisch und AAVE eindeutig anders vom Standard-Englischen werden geschrieben können.
I would say that Scottish English and AAVE can definitely be written differently from Standard English.

[Raphael]

Ich würde sagen, dass Scottisch-Englisch und AAVE eindeutig anders vom Standard-Englischen werden geschrieben können.
I would say that Scottish English and AAVE can definitely be written differently from Standard English.

Aber in beiden Fällen werden einige Leute beleidigt sein, wenn man es als einen Dialekt des Englischen anstatt als eigene Sprache bezeichnet.

But in both cases some people will be offended if you describe it as a dialect of English instead of as a language of its own.

[jal]

Wenn man einen Dialekt anders schreibt als die standard Sprache, nennt man das auf Englisch "eye dialect".
If one writes a dialect different from the standard language, it's called "eye dialect" in English.


JAL

[Raphael]

Wenn man einen Dialekt anders schreibt als die standard Sprache, nennt man das auf Englisch "eye dialect".
If one writes a dialect different from the standard language, it's called "eye dialect" in English.


JAL

Danke!

Thank you!

("Standardsprache")

[Travis B.]

Ich würde sagen, dass Scottisch-Englisch und AAVE eindeutig anders vom Standard-Englischen werden geschrieben können.
I would say that Scottish English and AAVE can definitely be written differently from Standard English.

Aber in beiden Fällen werden einige Leute beleidigt sein, wenn man es als einen Dialekt des Englischen anstatt als eigene Sprache bezeichnet.

But in both cases some people will be offended if you describe it as a dialect of English instead of as a language of its own.

Übrigens ist Schottisch-Englisch nicht dasselbe wie Schottisch.
By the way, Scottish English is not the same as Scots.

[Raphael]

Übrigens ist Schottisch-Englisch nicht dasselbe wie Schottisch.
By the way, Scottish English is not the same as Scots.

Oh, Entschuldigung!

Oh, sorry!

[Man in Space]

Die einzige nicht-kreolische anglische Sprachvarietät, die üblicherweise als eigene Sprache gennant wird, ist Schottisch.
The only non-creole Anglic variety that is commonly called its own language is Scots.

(Apologies for not speaking in another language, but Yola and Fingallian were often considered their own Anglic languages.)

[Travis B.]

Die einzige nicht-kreolische anglische Sprachvarietät, die üblicherweise als eigene Sprache gennant wird, ist Schottisch.
The only non-creole Anglic variety that is commonly called its own language is Scots.

(Apologies for not speaking in another language, but Yola and Fingallian were often considered their own Anglic languages.)

Ich hatte lebenden Sprachen gemeint.
I had meant living languages.

[Znex]

Bin ich mir nicht sicher.

I'm not sure.

Por falar de idiomas, eu já vi expressões de verbo-inicial como "V ich" em alemão (e iídiche por sinal) antes, mas como eles funcionam me escapa.
Speaking of idioms, I have seen verb-initial expressions like "V ich" in German (and Yiddish for that matter) before, but how they work eludes me.

Eu tenho a impressão que é como "das" está sendo elidido no início, mas não sei.
I get the impression that it's like "das" is being elided at the beginning, but I don't know.

[jal]

Speaking of idioms, I have seen verb-initial expressions like "V ich" in German (and Yiddish for that matter) before, but how they work eludes me. I get the impression that it's like "das" is being elided at the beginning, but I don't know.

Keine Ahnung was du meinst...
No idea what you mean...

(At least for declarative sentences. Of course, in questions VS is the normal pattern. In subclauses, it's SOV.)


JAL

[Znex]

Keine Ahnung was du meinst...
No idea what you mean...

Tudo bem, eu acabei de mencionar isso com brblues (que também fala alemão) por Discord, e ele sabia do que eu estou falando.
All good, I just mentioned it to brblues (who also speaks German) on Discord, and he knew what I was talking about.

(So I dunno how common it is outside German and Yiddish, but colloquially you could say the below sentences for instance (and for clarification, I do mean statements, not polar questions where the order would alternate anyway), without the initial pronominal element and without changing the syntax, and still speak grammatically:
"(Da) bin ich mir nicht sicher." = "I'm not sure (about that)."
"(Das) weiß ich nicht." = "I don't know (that)."
"(Das) hab ich dir doch gesagt!" = "I've told you (this) already!"

He did mention it was more likely to occur when the topic was already super obvious from context - hence the simple anaphors used in the first place.)

[Travis B.]

Wenn man einen Dialekt anders schreibt als die standard Sprache, nennt man das auf Englisch "eye dialect".
If one writes a dialect different from the standard language, it's called "eye dialect" in English.

I'm going to write this in English, as I'm going to explicate on this a bit:

A lot of 'eye dialect' in English is actually pseudo-phonetic renderings of what is essentially standard everyday spoken English, not dialect, except for things like marking non-rhoticism explicitly. I was reminded of this when reading the official lyrics of RATM songs, where there is the habit of writing the as "tha" to represent [ðə]... which is exactly how it is pronounced most of the time in Standard English when not stressed or before a vowel. Take things in 'eye dialect' like 'hafta', 'gonna', 'gotta', 'shoulda', 'coulda', 'woulda', 'sposta', 'kinda', 'sorta', 'gotcha', 'd'you', etc. ─ most everyone actually speaks like that on an everyday basis.

Conversely, I would say that most English-speakers outside Scotland who speak a dialect different from Standard English, myself included, are essentially illiterate in their native dialects, because there is simply no way to traditional way to represent them in writing, even using 'eye dialect'. This is unlike, say, continental West Germanic dialects or Scottish English and Scots varieties, where there exist traditions of actually writing them down.

[Darren]

Conversely, I would say that most English-speakers outside Scotland who speak a dialect different from Standard English, myself included, are essentially illiterate in their native dialects, because there is simply no way to traditional way to represent them in writing, even using 'eye dialect'. This is unlike, say, continental West Germanic dialects or Scottish English and Scots varieties, where there exist traditions of actually writing them down.

I don't want to bring this thread hideously off topic, but if you did try and represent your dialect in writing, how would you go about it?

[Travis B.]

Conversely, I would say that most English-speakers outside Scotland who speak a dialect different from Standard English, myself included, are essentially illiterate in their native dialects, because there is simply no way to traditional way to represent them in writing, even using 'eye dialect'. This is unlike, say, continental West Germanic dialects or Scottish English and Scots varieties, where there exist traditions of actually writing them down.

I don't want to bring this thread hideously off topic, but if you did try and represent your dialect in writing, how would you go about it?

I would have to come up with a new spelling system from whole cloth because none simply exists for the dialect here, and no one else would be able to read it.

[jal]

(So I dunno how common it is outside German and Yiddish, but colloquially you could say the below sentences for instance (and for clarification, I do mean statements, not polar questions where the order would alternate anyway), without the initial pronominal element and without changing the syntax, and still speak grammatically:
"(Da) bin ich mir nicht sicher." = "I'm not sure (about that)."
"(Das) weiß ich nicht." = "I don't know (that)."
"(Das) hab ich dir doch gesagt!" = "I've told you (this) already!"

That's very common in spoken Dutch as well. "(Dat) weet ik niet" (I don't know), "(Dat) heb ik al gezegd" (I've already said that), "(Dat) ga ik nog doen" (I'm going to do that later) etc.


JAL

[jal]

A lot of 'eye dialect' in English is actually pseudo-phonetic renderings of what is essentially standard everyday spoken English, not dialect

This is true, but nevertheless it's called "eye dialect". As Wikipedia says "Eye dialect is a writer's use of deliberately nonstandard spelling either because they do not consider the standard spelling a good reflection of the pronunciation or because they are intending to portray informal or low-status language usage"


JAL

[Linguoboy]

A lot of 'eye dialect' in English is actually pseudo-phonetic renderings of what is essentially standard everyday spoken English, not dialect

This is true, but nevertheless it's called "eye dialect". As Wikipedia says "Eye dialect is a writer's use of deliberately nonstandard spelling either because they do not consider the standard spelling a good reflection of the pronunciation or because they are intending to portray informal or low-status language usage"

Das kommt mir ähnlich vor, als was mit "Volksetymologie" passiert ist, wo die Bedeutung vom Fachbegriff populär erweitert worden ist, um den Sinn "gemeinhin akzeptierte falsche Etymologie" einzuschließen.
This seems similar to me to what happened with "folk etymology", which now subsumes both the original meaning and the meaning of "popular etymology".

[Travis B.]

A lot of 'eye dialect' in English is actually pseudo-phonetic renderings of what is essentially standard everyday spoken English, not dialect

This is true, but nevertheless it's called "eye dialect". As Wikipedia says "Eye dialect is a writer's use of deliberately nonstandard spelling either because they do not consider the standard spelling a good reflection of the pronunciation or because they are intending to portray informal or low-status language usage"

Das kommt mir ähnlich vor, als was mit "Volksetymologie" passiert ist, wo die Bedeutung vom Fachbegriff populär erweitert worden ist, um den Sinn "gemeinhin akzeptierte falsche Etymologie" einzuschließen.
This seems similar to me to what happened with "folk etymology", which now subsumes both the original meaning and the meaning of "popular etymology".

Ich glaube, dass du vergessen hast, den letzten Teil davon, was du gesagt hast, überzusetzen.
I think you forgot to translate the last part of what you said.

[Linguoboy]

Ich glaube, dass du vergessen hast, den letzten Teil davon, was du gesagt hast, zu überzusetzen.
I think you forgot to translate the last part of what you said.

Nichts hab ich vergessen. Meine Uebersetzungen hier sind nicht wortgetreu.
Noughts have I forget. My oversettings here are not wordtrue.

[Travis B.]

Gottverdammt! Ich hatte "überzusetzen" gegooglet, sicher zu sein, weil ich nicht sicher war, ob "übersetzen" trennbar oder nicht war. Ich hatte verdacht, dass es nicht trennbar war.
Goddammit! I had googled "überzusetzen" to be sure, because I was not sure whether "übersetzen" was separable or not. I had suspected that it was not separable.